[ASK1945]

Martyn and Simon

I think that you are both right !

It seems that (like me) Martyn works or worked in a regulatory environment and so has to provide customer service that enables proper “informed consent”, with the assumption that the customer understands what they are purchasing.

In your analogy Simon, if selling cars was supervised by a regulator, the salesman would have the duty to ensure that the customer purchasing the car has a licence – or that the person who is intended to drive it has. The onus would be on the salesman to prove that they did that, if anything went wrong. That’s why many (if not all) regulated service providers need to carry indemnity insurance, to protect themselves from a customer who cries “foul”.

I am with Martyn on this one, because airlines are regulated. How much information needs to be carried must be sufficiently detailed for all customers to understand, not just informed ones like the people on this Forum.

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1001341]It seems that (like me) Martyn works or worked in a regulatory environment and so has to provide customer service that enables proper “informed consent”, with the assumption that the customer understands what they are purchasing.[/quote]

I also work in a regulated environment (financial). When putting structures together our regulators tell us the client should be advised to take tax advice and this should be stated in the T&Cs of the product.

We don’t have to provide tax advice on every jurisdiction ourselves, it is the buyer’s responsibility.

[ASK1945]

Thanks for the quick response, Simon.

Perhaps I should have written “consumer” rather than “customer”. The issue of consent for a purchase is different from a business purchase. I was too focussed on the holiday market, which is aimed at consumers, who are not necessarily as up to speed as business customers should be. If I was booking a business trip to the USA, I would agree with you that due diligence about every aspect would be necessary.

But, the law (at least in the UK) appears to make a difference between what a consumer should expect from a transaction and what a business entity would expect.

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=1001340]If a car dealer sold me a car and I didn’t have a license to drive it, is that their problem or mine?

In the 30+ years I have been travelling on business I have always understood that it is my issue to have correct documents and permits to travel and not the airline’s job to check every permutation. Sometimes we have to take responsibility for ourselves and stop blaming others all the time.[/quote]

The discussion is neither about buying a car or checking all your travel documents are prepared in a nice pile and checked, on the day of departure – neither is it about a client or a customer being required to take tax advice before buying a complex investment structure.

An airline, charter company or a corporate flight department, needs to know in advance, whether they are permitted to carry a passenger from A to B and what restrictions are currently in place. Even for a Times reader, it is fact, USA has closed borders for UK nationals (and others) at the moment, except for a very narrow band of passengers. So you may have all the correct documents, including a valid VISA and or ESTA, which makes you believe you can travel, BUT the airline has the knowledge, you CANT. So under these circumstances, (not forgetting API), should airlines be still be facilitating / selling non usable tickets for immediate travel…and then offering only a voucher as a refund…? My professional world, regulated or not, says NO.

The corporate flight department I partner with, has turned down nearly all ad hoc charter work over the past few months, for UK nationals, ex UK. The thought of taking advance deposits or full costs and then advising passengers they cant travel at the departure point… is not the way, I or my partners run their businesses.

I stand by my view that it is wrong for airlines to sell tickets for flights they are invariably well aware of that UK nationals are not allowed to board (or at the very least, warn passengers of that risk).

1 user thanked author for this post.

ASK1945

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1001345]But, the law (at least in the UK) appears to make a difference between what a consumer should expect from a transaction and what a business entity would expect.[/quote]

Well my business is individuals, not corporates.

And maybe not, as what Virgin are doing is perfectly legal. In any case I don’t get the difference, the traveller will always be an individual. Corporate entities don’t generally travel…..

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1001346]An airline, charter company or a corporate flight department, needs to know in advance, whether they are permitted to carry a passenger from A to B and what restrictions are currently in place. Even for a Times reader, it is fact, USA has closed borders for UK nationals (and others) at the moment, except for a very narrow band of passengers. So you may have all the correct documents, including a valid VISA and or ESTA, which makes you believe you can travel, BUT the airline has the knowledge, you CANT. So under these circumstances, (not forgetting API), should airlines be still be facilitating / selling non usable tickets for immediate travel…and then offering only a voucher as a refund…? My professional world, regulated or not, says NO.[/quote]

So for an airline like BA, which flies to dozens of different places, you would expect them to police their sales to recognise the different border positions for each country for citizens, residents and visitors (by nationality) on any given day?

I think we both know it will never happen, as border controls are changing daily, as we will find on Monday when the first relaxations of UK quarantines are announced.

The only way that could be made waterproof is to shut everything down (which to be fair would be consistent with your normal view). In any case the home page of Virgin has a big section on Covid 19 including “Travel Testrictions by Destination”….there is only so much spoon feeding that can be done without people having to take some responsibility.

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=1001348]So for an airline like BA, which flies to dozens of different places, you would expect them to police their sales to recognise the different border positions for each country for citizens, residents and visitors (by nationality) on any given day?[/quote]

No Simon, far easier to just place a clear warning at point of sale… in fact, just like British Airways currently do for passengers buying tickets coming into the UK, really is quite simple and far more honest than letting passenger buy tickets they cant use.

[quote quote=1001348]The only way that could be made waterproof is to shut everything down (which to be fair would be consistent with your normal view). In any case the home page of Virgin has a big section on Covid 19 including “Travel Testrictions by Destination”….there is only so much spoon feeding that can be done without people having to take some responsibility.[/quote]

You really do live in another world Simon. It is so easy to be honest and open with customers and / or clients without going to extremes. Simply provide a warning. This may be considered as spoon feeding to Times readers, but just common courtesy to most buyers of products. Lets just put the difference down to our own business morals and ethics. I don’t believe airlines should sell unusable air tickets, you think differently, so be it!

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1001349]Simply provide a warning. This may be considered as spoon feeding to Times readers, but just common courtesy to most buyers of products. Lets just put the difference down to our own business morals and ethics. I don’t believe airlines should sell unusable air tickets, you think differently, so be it![/quote]

That is what airlines have been doing since ever.

At any point in last x years I could have bought a return ticket to somewhere like Nigeria, China, Russia etc. Without a visa that ticket is unusable, and the Visa could easily be refused. That of course is my risk alone. Naturally the only point at which the judgement of usability can be made is when the flight checks in since by then I may/may not have a visa, just like the US border may/may not have reopened.

However to be fair though you may have struck on some ingenius new wheeze that could shut down a good chunk of the world’s travel business. That would make the Mail chaps happy.

By the way doesn’t the Covid-19 Travel Advice splash right across the VS home page with links things like “Travel Restrictions by Destination” give value that some due diligence may be in order? Or isn’t that enough on the spoon feeding scale?

[SimonS1]

Changing tack it’s good to hear on BBC that on Monday the first 10 or more bilateral travel agreements will be announced effective 6th July.

Hopefully that will help in getting the country and airports moving again with some employees getting back to work. Plus it opens up some hub opportunities like Amsterdam and Paris for travel further afield.

Fingers crossed that when coupled with other relaxations like pubs and restaurants this will be the start of a rebound in the global economy.

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=1001352]Plus it opens up some hub opportunities like Amsterdam and Paris for travel further afield.[/quote]

sounds perfect, as long as UK nationals are allowed in. Positive news (in the Daily Mail, though, not the Times) that Thailand and Vietnam were in the Green zone. Lets see if both countries feel the same about the UK – I for one will be very happy if they allow UK nationals in, either directly from the Uk or from a hub.

2 users thanked author for this post.

ASK1945, DerekVH

[ASK1945]

MartynSinclair wrote:

“It is so easy to be honest and open with customers and / or clients without going to extremes. Simply provide a warning. This may be considered as spoon feeding to Times readers, but just common courtesy to most buyers of products.”

I totally agree. I really cannot understand – in this age of instant IT – why BA, Vs and the others cannot insert a warning on their website(s) when a PX is about to purchase a ticket to a country where it is known there is restricted entry, at the time of the purchase. It can be generic, such as “Have you checked that entry is permissable?” or other such wording.

Yes it panders to the lowest common denominator of travellers – but so what? Most of the population of the UK don’t read the BT Forum.

Simon – earlier I wrote that you and Martyn are both right. I still think you are – but that does not negate my view that a warning should be introduced.

[K1ngston]

[postquote quote=1001353][/postquote]

Martyn I can comment here, there is no unlimited International access to either country currently, therefore with the traffic light system in place in the UK at least we know about heading back to the UK, however for me to visit my sick mum I cant leave Thailand specifically (there are non direct flights from BKK with EvaAir!!) I can arrive back into the the UK and (now) have to go into quarantine I am assuming at my own cost and then not be able to get back into my current home country (Thailand)

Locally even more confused but I guess this is not the crux of this thread, the fact is until Governments open up their borders not just to UK residents but everyone there will be a mish mash of rules and regs and frankly albeit I am desperate to get out and about and would be the first person on a plane having to spend 28 days in quarantine on a journey is nonsense so will stay here where there have been no reported second waves or deaths for days now!

One final point I am confused with the rules and regs being reported where Thailand and Vietnam are in the Green Zone meaning ok to travel to, what does Amber mean for Singapore can someone enlighten me please? Thanks!!

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=1001489]there is no unlimited International access to either country currently,[/quote]

Hi K1ngston – UK border as you know remains open, only subject to 14 days ‘quarantine’ (until revision). Sad to say, this is largely being ignored.

[quote quote=1001489]Thailand and Vietnam are in the Green Zone meaning ok to travel to,[/quote]

Yes indeed, Thailand and Vietnam appear to be in the Green zone, meaning safe for UK citizens to visit and presumably Thai and Vietnamese to visit the UK without quarantine. However, the old saying. “it takes two to tango” springs to mind.

The interesting one is the USA red zone. News wires were reporting over the weekend some states in the south were restricting state to state travel. I wonder how restrictive or open the rest of the world will be in allowing USA visitors in?

I still think your BBQ will need to be fired up nearer to the end of the year… hope you remain healthy…

[K1ngston]

[postquote quote=1001530][/postquote]

The BBQ will always be fired up for you Martyn whenever and whereever! All good here in Phuket we are rattling around with limited restrictions as there are no outward involvement on the island

[MartynSinclair]

“The European Union has given approval for people travelling for business or leisure from 15 countries beyond its borders to enter the bloc from today.”

The full list as published on Sky News

Algeria
Australia
Canada
Georgia
Japan
Montenegro
Morocco
New Zealand
Rwanda
Serbia
South Korea
Thailand
Tunisia
Uruguay

“Reciprocity is a condition of being on the list which will be updated every 14 days, with new countries being added or dropped off depending on whether they are keeping the pandemic under control.”

Interesting as i cant see many of the countries on the list allowing EU residents in as of today. So whats the point of the list in the first place.

USA is off the list, presumably US citizens are now barred from entering the EU.

[Author]

Posts