Airports opening, airlines flying – the re-emerging of aviation.

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  • GivingupBA
    Participant

    I didn’t realise BT had morphed into a medical journal. Is it not time to give this thread a rest?

    Thanks, but no, I don’t think it’s time to give it a rest. Most of the posts on this thread are about airlines, flights, travel restrictions, borders, and possible quarantines (not medical matters) – all very relevant topics for this forum in my opinion.

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    SimonS1
    Participant

    I didn’t realise BT had morphed into a medical journal. Is it not time to give this thread a rest?

    I don’t think you can divorce the medical issues from the travel ones – after all it is the virus that has brought flights to a virtual standstill.

    However I do agree the focus should be on how we can get things moving again, and not making silly arguments that try to make it appear that allowing Heathrow continue to operate +/- 3% of scheduled passenger flights has caused tens of thousands of deaths, directly led to UK becoming some sort of epicentre for coronavirus, or that UK residents are/will be the lepers of international travel in the future.

    Of course there are things that could have been done differently, however the time for analysis and review will come later. In the meantime airlines, airports, hotels, travel companies, resorts etc are real businesses that employ real people…..I think we can rest assured that they all want to try and rebuild their businesses as soon as possible.

    In my view that should be partly down to personal choice (ie whether to travel or continue to self isolate) as well as Government controls. We don’t live in a nanny state, and given the wall to wall coverage of the last 2 months most people are capable of weighing up the risks for themselves. After all to my knowledge no-one is forced to enter an airport or get on a plane against their will.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    TimFitzgeraldTC
    Participant

    SimonS1

    “After all to my knowledge no-one is forced to enter an airport or get on a plane against their will”

    I think this is a good point and one that any corporate will have to take on board. I’ve helped out a client in sorting policies for a trip to Amsterdam as they had to undertake a full risk assessment & review (any company is going to have to look at this) and the 1st point is that no one would have to travel if they felt uncomfortable to do so and take into account all the other things they might not normally consider (family commitments around caring / underlying health conditions of others – not the immediate employee).

    We also had to understand all the exit strategies should things happen politically / medically at the destination or here at home – so plane, train, ferry and Private Jet costs should normal scheduled services cease. Around the hotel we had to know how staff cleaned (or were stopped from cleaning and entering rooms), room service, numer of stairwells ease of stairs and other factors.

    So I imagine those where people were expected to travel in job roles understandably have the right to say no without consequence.


    ontherunhome
    Participant

    The UK has probably reported deaths honestly, and the figures are reliable. I just wonder whether other nations have been so honest, or have tried to hide the numbers?

    Life will never be the same again, but we must get on with living, so those that died, are not just a grim statistic. Stay safe.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    MarcusGB
    Participant

    Thanks for your remarks regarding what i have posted. In relation to the subject of the thread, Aviation cannot function between even “Pairing” countries, if both are not managing the Pandemic well. I take the considered view, fed back by many from outside the UK, how the UK is being seen, reports on TV news, WHO stats, people in their own country to ours.

    I was in Australia in Jan 20, having flown through far East with stopovers, so i saw what was happening at early stages and measures being taken. I returned in March to UK.
    I have friends and colleagues in several countries through Europe, Far East, Australia also, Dr’s – Specialists in many medical areas, both Director and Senior level Nurses, Organisations, Organisational Leaders.. I have worked in several countries and travelled much so they are on the ground live insights.
    Much information also is gathered by the WHO Worldwide, (but of course they are reliant upon accurate country reporting). We are 4th in The World at this time for people having been taken by this disease. The worst in Europe.
    This does not include the unexplained overall rates from last year of deaths in the UK. never seen before, clearly related in one way or another to Covid, or shutting off of other services to people already ill with other issues. What i have seen was 50,000 from one epidemiologist on Newsnight, that was 10 days ago.

    The virus was spread through travelling, people being infected, known or not travelling to another part of the World. This is why i disagree with the lack of Border closures. Australia and NZ did so, I was there at the time, and they were hard hitting, and have had about 100 deaths only in Australia. They did contain it, and still have closed borders, starting in late Jan! Qantas flights were sent to return people home, military set up quarantine Government places in remote areas (this is detailed in a previous thread).
    They contained the virus very well, most people not treated in Hospitals but set Government facilities in quarantine when flown back. Then flown back to their cities. They and S Korea, NZ coped very well.
    There have been plenty of very fit younger people admitted to Hospitals in their 20-30’s also. This is related in the recent Documentaries, and frequently on the news insights into ITU’s.

    We are around the 50,000+ rate of deaths when all counted, with unexplained deaths well above this time in the last few years.. It has been common knowledge that has been an Aversion to what is recorded when no tests have been completed, yet symptoms clear, especially in Nursing and Residential Homes, community.
    This has been heartfelt reported for weeks now.
    Please note, i do not wish to be blunt bringing this info on here, these are all tragedies.
    Many Dr’s and Nurses are in tears at the end of another shift daily these days. Those people going into ITU, 50% do not survive, and those that do are very weak, and in need of many months of care and rehabilitation. This is all round trauma for all concerned, let alone those suffering, and the families of all.

    UK travellers are being singled out Not to travel already.
    Greece has placed the UK on a list of only 7 countries, where they will NOT be accepting tourists back. The Greek Government is the source i refer too and the EU Commission.

    “Unfortunately for UK travellers, the United Kingdom has been included in a list of seven countries that are not being accepted to Greece.
    Greek tourism minister Haris Theoharis told ITV that the UK’s record on coronavirus has not been good enough to allow British travellers to visit Greece. There has been no indication when UK travellers might begin to be permitted again.”
    This was featured on both ITV and C4 News the last few days.

    I work with and know many Drs in Specialist areas, ITU Managers, ITU Nurses, and Senior Nursing staff around various Hospitals in London, and many other colleagues.
    In the last days, generally there is beginning, an increase in people presenting to A n E, with Covid symptoms.
    It really should not be unexpected with the mass releases of lockdowns now. We shall have a clearer view within 2-3 weeks time.
    I do understand the need to economically get going.
    But the reality is that this Consuming disease is known little of, as i mentioned previously, we did not lock down as other countries did, we have not tested, tracked or traced. We are going to have to live with it for some time, perhaps even 1-2 years the WHO state.
    As mentioned, it is now hitting S America more, and though little new in, more African countries. It has rapidly spread from China, outwards Worldwide through travelling.

    Within The Australian Government, discussions raised concerns that the Pandemic in the UK has not been managed well, and that accepting incoming passengers into Australia, as one of the worst outcomes in infection and deaths. I used to live in Australia, and know from former colleagues and friends living there now, what is being discussed in Government. They do not consider it to have been managed, or over, or in decline yet, as within Australia.
    Also the perceptions of other people from countries around The World looking in on us.
    It often surprises me how the UK is viewed when you are overseas, from another country, via TV news, National and Regional news, and publications.

    Sources here – C4 News, BBC News Radio 4 news, ITV News, The Guardian on line, The Times, WHO and Professionals notifications regularly… all with insights from Key medics and Nurses , Managers of Hospitals, on the ground, able to inform you each day what the issues presented to A & E are, ITU places, and the awful rate of deaths.

    BBC featured undertakers last week, who had been told to prepare for 85,000 deaths if there was a 2nd wave, by Government!

    Andrew Marr Sunday with the last 2 weeks of varying experts, including the WHO, predicting there will be another rise, and also 2 weeks ago a very clear indication that masks are not effective, apart from stopping you from coughing out to others.
    The particles of virus droplets penetrate most masks 1 micron to 8 microns in the masks. Ask any Dr or Nurse and they will inform you how short a period a mask lasts for.
    Many on TV are not wearing them properly, keep fiddling with them, and moving them over their heads, or under the chins. This transfers infection inside and out.
    touching your finger inside contaminates the mask, and people keep fiddling with them, which breaches the barriers.

    Further when disposed of they DO become Clinical Waste!! These should be disposed of as in Hospitals, in clear clinical infectious potential waste. But outside in the community, this is not understood or being done. This will be quite a hazard!
    So neither will fashionable home made masks protect at all.

    BBC visiting The Royal London Hospital ITU (a short docu each BBC news this week for a few mins)….

    There was the very powerful documentary on the Royal Free Hospital and Barnet Hospitals in London on BBC. You can hear the view from the Medics there, It is on BBC Iplayer under Hospital Covid, 2 x 1 hr documentaries. It mentions RFH having 400 beds of Covid patients (most floors), and 60 ITU patients in various areas during the documentary visit.
    I know many people who work and manage these two Hospitals, and have access.
    It was reported a few days ago that this Hospital has had over 500 deaths alone!

    On Newsnight, that some Hospitals are starting top see a rise again in patients reporting to A & E, one Hospital last Saturday seeing 30 new cases, the next day over 60. I think it was Weston area. It has been highlighted in The Guardian…

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/25/somerset-hospital-weston-general-hospital-closed-new-patients-halt-spread-coronavirus

    In London 26,867 cases of Covid-19 so far as of yesterday. Current rates are thought to be 7.000 a week new infections.
    Though there were over 2,000 actual new tests returned yesterday as positive England wide.

    So my sources are people working with the crisis now, in the Hospitals, others in different countries that have nothing like our experiences, and their Governments having acted very differently. I hope this is helpful, sorry so long, but you ask for evidence and where from…
    This is why we may well find it difficult to “pair off” with other countries for flying in and out.
    The next few weeks will show if we have more cases as a result of opening up, inevitable really.
    There are also more concerns of a whole new scenario come winter….

    This is far from over, and certainly not contained yet….

    5 users thanked author for this post.

    astoria
    Participant

    “Life will never be the same again”. I very much doubt that. My guess is that in around 10 years time people will have almost forgotten about this as life always goes on and society recovers even after much larger crises e.g. Pandemic of 1908 and WW2.

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    MartynSinclair
    Participant

    I have never denied there may have been some imported cases. But with passenger flights down by 97% it is not 38,000 or anything remotely like it.

    I don’t recall anyone quoting our open borders caused 38,000 deaths (Fake News perhaps). Excellent interview this morning with Adam Boulton on Sky, quoting FT and Oxford Uni confirming the UK now having the worse death rate / mil as well as second highest number of deaths. As you say, time for an inquiry as to why, later.

    Clearly in the months to come we will all have choices to make. Those that choose to get on with their lives will be able to travel (Sweden, Ireland and UK open, plus I believe Netherlands, then Iceland 15/6, Italy on 3/6, Spain and Greece on 1/7), but of course nothing to stop the more nervous traveller self isolating for the next year if required…..

    I realise the issues and challenges around COVID-19 differ from country to country and without trying to inflame further a clear difference of opinion within this widely read Forum, I do wish there could be a more agreement between the scientific and medical experts (nationally and internationally). Otherwise, as the world opens up, it may become similar to a game of snakes and ladders, as progress is made by one country, another one may force us all to slide back down the ladder.

    I find it very hard to accept how each country is dealing with the problems in vastly differing ways (closed/open/track/curfew/compulsory quarantine/self isolating quarantine/masks/drink detergent/social distancing and by how many metres – the list is endless) – and in the midst of all this, we now as individuals need to make our own informed risk assessment whether to travel or not.

    Will be interesting to hear peoples travel experiences over the next few months …

    Have a wonderful evening…

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    capetonianm
    Participant

    How many of those 38,000 deaths were due to our open borders?

    It is completely impossible to prove or disprove this. There are too many unknowns and inconsistencies in methodologies for defining causes of death, in counting, recording, and in reporting deaths.
    There will be enquiries, hearings, inquests, trials, pontifications, reports, projections, learned papers will be written and studied …. and so on, but nobody will ever really know. It’s all just words.

    (Ronan Keating “When You Say Nothing At All”)


    SimonS1
    Participant

    Pleased to hear Boris on the TV just now beginning to lift restrictions in a risk-managed way, just like Nicola Sturgeon did this morning.

    Looks like some green shoots are appearing.

    Despite MarcusGB’s usual tale of doom I’m sure Greece will again open its borders once there is further evidence of falling infection rates in UK. This is no great surprise, and fairly inevitable given the position of UK on the calendar relative to Italy, Spain and other early developers.

    3 users thanked author for this post.

    esselle
    Participant

    Pleased to hear Boris on the TV just now beginning to lift restrictions in a risk-managed way, just like Nicola Sturgeon did this morning.

    Looks like some green shoots are appearing.

    Despite MarcusGB’s usual tale of doom I’m sure Greece will again open its borders once there is further evidence of falling infection rates in UK. This is no great surprise, and fairly inevitable given the position of UK on the calendar relative to Italy, Spain and other early developers.

    Yes but no but……..they know that if they don’t take the risk of opening their borders now and getting some semblance of a tourism industry moving again, then their economies are dead. It’s degree of risk. Look at Egypt after the Sharm bombing, or supermarkets selling beef at low prices after BSE; it’s about degree of risk and at what price people are prepared to gamble.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    K1ngston
    Participant

    Thanks for your remarks regarding what i have posted. In relation to the subject of the thread, Aviation cannot function between even “Pairing” countries, if both are not managing the Pandemic well. I take the considered view, fed back by many from outside the UK, how the UK is being seen, reports on TV news, WHO stats, people in their own country to ours.

    I was in Australia in Jan 20, having flown through far East with stopovers, so i saw what was happening at early stages and measures being taken. I returned in March to UK.
    I have friends and colleagues in several countries through Europe, Far East, Australia also, Dr’s – Specialists in many medical areas, both Director and Senior level Nurses, Organisations, Organisational Leaders.. I have worked in several countries and travelled much so they are on the ground live insights.
    Much information also is gathered by the WHO Worldwide, (but of course they are reliant upon accurate country reporting). We are 4th in The World at this time for people having been taken by this disease. The worst in Europe.
    This does not include the unexplained overall rates from last year of deaths in the UK. never seen before, clearly related in one way or another to Covid, or shutting off of other services to people already ill with other issues. What i have seen was 50,000 from one epidemiologist on Newsnight, that was 10 days ago.

    The virus was spread through travelling, people being infected, known or not travelling to another part of the World. This is why i disagree with the lack of Border closures. Australia and NZ did so, I was there at the time, and they were hard hitting, and have had about 100 deaths only in Australia. They did contain it, and still have closed borders, starting in late Jan! Qantas flights were sent to return people home, military set up quarantine Government places in remote areas (this is detailed in a previous thread).
    They contained the virus very well, most people not treated in Hospitals but set Government facilities in quarantine when flown back. Then flown back to their cities. They and S Korea, NZ coped very well.
    There have been plenty of very fit younger people admitted to Hospitals in their 20-30’s also. This is related in the recent Documentaries, and frequently on the news insights into ITU’s.

    We are around the 50,000+ rate of deaths when all counted, with unexplained deaths well above this time in the last few years.. It has been common knowledge that has been an Aversion to what is recorded when no tests have been completed, yet symptoms clear, especially in Nursing and Residential Homes, community.
    This has been heartfelt reported for weeks now.
    Please note, i do not wish to be blunt bringing this info on here, these are all tragedies.
    Many Dr’s and Nurses are in tears at the end of another shift daily these days. Those people going into ITU, 50% do not survive, and those that do are very weak, and in need of many months of care and rehabilitation. This is all round trauma for all concerned, let alone those suffering, and the families of all.

    UK travellers are being singled out Not to travel already.
    Greece has placed the UK on a list of only 7 countries, where they will NOT be accepting tourists back. The Greek Government is the source i refer too and the EU Commission.

    “Unfortunately for UK travellers, the United Kingdom has been included in a list of seven countries that are not being accepted to Greece.
    Greek tourism minister Haris Theoharis told ITV that the UK’s record on coronavirus has not been good enough to allow British travellers to visit Greece. There has been no indication when UK travellers might begin to be permitted again.”
    This was featured on both ITV and C4 News the last few days.

    I work with and know many Drs in Specialist areas, ITU Managers, ITU Nurses, and Senior Nursing staff around various Hospitals in London, and many other colleagues.
    In the last days, generally there is beginning, an increase in people presenting to A n E, with Covid symptoms.
    It really should not be unexpected with the mass releases of lockdowns now. We shall have a clearer view within 2-3 weeks time.
    I do understand the need to economically get going.
    But the reality is that this Consuming disease is known little of, as i mentioned previously, we did not lock down as other countries did, we have not tested, tracked or traced. We are going to have to live with it for some time, perhaps even 1-2 years the WHO state.
    As mentioned, it is now hitting S America more, and though little new in, more African countries. It has rapidly spread from China, outwards Worldwide through travelling.

    Within The Australian Government, discussions raised concerns that the Pandemic in the UK has not been managed well, and that accepting incoming passengers into Australia, as one of the worst outcomes in infection and deaths. I used to live in Australia, and know from former colleagues and friends living there now, what is being discussed in Government. They do not consider it to have been managed, or over, or in decline yet, as within Australia.
    Also the perceptions of other people from countries around The World looking in on us.
    It often surprises me how the UK is viewed when you are overseas, from another country, via TV news, National and Regional news, and publications.

    Sources here – C4 News, BBC News Radio 4 news, ITV News, The Guardian on line, The Times, WHO and Professionals notifications regularly… all with insights from Key medics and Nurses , Managers of Hospitals, on the ground, able to inform you each day what the issues presented to A & E are, ITU places, and the awful rate of deaths.

    BBC featured undertakers last week, who had been told to prepare for 85,000 deaths if there was a 2nd wave, by Government!

    Andrew Marr Sunday with the last 2 weeks of varying experts, including the WHO, predicting there will be another rise, and also 2 weeks ago a very clear indication that masks are not effective, apart from stopping you from coughing out to others.
    The particles of virus droplets penetrate most masks 1 micron to 8 microns in the masks. Ask any Dr or Nurse and they will inform you how short a period a mask lasts for.
    Many on TV are not wearing them properly, keep fiddling with them, and moving them over their heads, or under the chins. This transfers infection inside and out.
    touching your finger inside contaminates the mask, and people keep fiddling with them, which breaches the barriers.

    Further when disposed of they DO become Clinical Waste!! These should be disposed of as in Hospitals, in clear clinical infectious potential waste. But outside in the community, this is not understood or being done. This will be quite a hazard!
    So neither will fashionable home made masks protect at all.

    BBC visiting The Royal London Hospital ITU (a short docu each BBC news this week for a few mins)….

    There was the very powerful documentary on the Royal Free Hospital and Barnet Hospitals in London on BBC. You can hear the view from the Medics there, It is on BBC Iplayer under Hospital Covid, 2 x 1 hr documentaries. It mentions RFH having 400 beds of Covid patients (most floors), and 60 ITU patients in various areas during the documentary visit.
    I know many people who work and manage these two Hospitals, and have access.
    It was reported a few days ago that this Hospital has had over 500 deaths alone!

    On Newsnight, that some Hospitals are starting top see a rise again in patients reporting to A & E, one Hospital last Saturday seeing 30 new cases, the next day over 60. I think it was Weston area. It has been highlighted in The Guardian…

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/25/somerset-hospital-weston-general-hospital-closed-new-patients-halt-spread-coronavirus

    In London 26,867 cases of Covid-19 so far as of yesterday. Current rates are thought to be 7.000 a week new infections.
    Though there were over 2,000 actual new tests returned yesterday as positive England wide.

    So my sources are people working with the crisis now, in the Hospitals, others in different countries that have nothing like our experiences, and their Governments having acted very differently. I hope this is helpful, sorry so long, but you ask for evidence and where from…
    This is why we may well find it difficult to “pair off” with other countries for flying in and out.
    The next few weeks will show if we have more cases as a result of opening up, inevitable really.
    There are also more concerns of a whole new scenario come winter….

    This is far from over, and certainly not contained yet….

    MarcusGB I am sure others will say this, but I am convinced that Greece will open its borders to everyone as they are as desperate to get themselves back on track as any other economy! As for the rest of your very well put argument there are others who dont agree and I am one of them, I have stated on many occasions the only way to get back to normal is to start to act normal.

    I think everyone has to respect others points of view, and if one doesnt want to travel and remain in the comfort of their homes that is fine and should be respected, but someone needs to get out there and bring the world back on its axis …..

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    MarcusGB
    Participant

    I am sorry if you see the statement from inside the Health Emergency, compiled by various facts from the staff themselves, and evidence as my “Usual tale of doom”!!
    To us, it really is as stated, but clearly BBC NewsNight, Horizon, Hospital (Docu’s)The Times, WHO etc stating ans showing evidence through the camera, and articles are doing the same.

    I have no doubt that those who used to be employed, or are getting redundancy notices from Airlines, also feel that sense of “Gloom”.
    It is a grim situation, and one that whatever time or how many waves we do have of the CV – 19, is something in our lifetime we shall never forget.
    As repeated through the SAGE group today, 3/5 of Boris’s conditions are not yet in place, “just met” is not sustained.
    There is clear concern, and it is obvious to us all surely, that the release of so many lockdown restrictions is making this a fragile and precarious time.
    Our Government has the 2nd highest death rate in The World so far, and we cannot seem to end the outbreak, or have enabled restrictions for it to filter out of society.
    If it had “Burnt out” and we had no one else transmitting it, as other countries, like S Korea, Australia, NZ, but measures have not been in place as mentioned by others here.

    It would have been sensible to have “asked for help” from other countries such as S Korea, towards an effective App, track and trace, rather than the Government assuming they know best and will design their own “World Leading” ones.

    I am here waiting to also support Business getting going, and certainly to support as much as anyone, and that includes Air travel.
    The CEO of Heathrow last eve said on Newsnight, that if we cannot get flying again, there may not be many Airlines left to provide services.
    It was suggested also, that there may never be the same amount of travellers if Businesses have now changed their methods of working, and cut travel, increase homeworking, no offices or commutes even to an office or meeting.
    Long haul Premium cabins have seemed for a long time to occupy Leisure travellers, far more than those on Business, certainly Flying East, and into the Pacific region.
    Business class used to be 10 rows on KLM flights LHR- AMS, now they fly Economy, and the only varied 1-4 rows are for connecting Premium class Leisure travellers.

    However, BT has news of the many Airlines planning to start services again in July / August, albeit with 30% less staff no longer employed (as a mean average), and a fraction of scheduled flights as before.
    The public have not yet been educated on the low risks to being on board an Aircraft, if it is a modern one and the HEPA filters are used. I would like to see something of this being shown and written about for their safety.This has been promoted by a few Airlines as i know Qatar, EK, KLM have done.
    Though some Airlines are removing pillows, blankets also, toilet access unless requested to staff, so with being unable to eat anything that is only given to you Pre-Packed, it removes all the benefits to travel in a premium class, apart from the seat!

    Some crews are wearing complete Protective suits, masks and goggles as if they were dealing with a Nuclear accident, us having to wear masks constantly, no F & B etc, i will not be flying.
    We know the Masks are not effective, apart from your sneezing out, they need changing, are rarely worn properly, and people’s behaviour negates their protection in them slipping them up n down n fiddling with them! They become Medical waste when removed, and a great source of infection, need to be incinerated.
    The Covid virus has been described in droplet size as 1 Micron, most non Hospital grade masks protect to 8 microns only, so neither masks or a converted T shirt or scarf, will be of any effect.

    For Medium to Long Haul, this is just unrealistic, uncomfortable, and if the crews are being made to wear such OTT clothing, they imply risks must be very high, and we should all be wearing full Medical PPE! And with no vaccine, this could be the way Air travel is for some time, as this Virus now introduced, will have to be lived with.
    I would like to see how an Airline or airport copes with us as passengers arriving wearing full PPE for a flight, to match their staff!!

    I shall try to be less gloomy, and reveal less realism about this Uncontrollable Pandemic Virus that has halted The World, and normal life, in future forum input!
    My apologies if some of you have been distressed by the accounts from the teams in the Hospitals, as documentaries have plainly shown in the media.
    Few of the public ever get such access in Hospitals to these services, and would be shocked and traumatised by what they would see.
    This is however now the realism of the beginning to live with it.


    SimonS1
    Participant

    This is however now the realism of the beginning to live with it.

    There is no doubt that times have been tough, although the Government aim of protecting the NHS has paid off with a maximum of 41% of ventilators needed at any one time.

    The realism as I see it is infection rates in many places are now steadily falling and economies are opening up. The 5 tests set by UK Government have been met so the measures in place are being eased and that will continue all the time the tests remain met.

    Borders are starting to reopen, and travel will start to happen again. Even to places like Greece which depend on tourism.

    In the real world it will probably not be possible to social distance all the way through the journey from home to airport to aircraft to destination and back. I would therefore suggest that if you are sufficiently concerned to be considering full medical PPE when travelling it might just be better to de-stress, and stay at home with your doors locked until a vaccine is available?

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    SimonS1
    Participant

    If it had “Burnt out” and we had no one else transmitting it, as other countries, like S Korea,

    By the way is that the same South Korea that has had 250 schools closed down today plus parks and museums due to highest daily number of cases in 2 months?

    As Ricky Tomlinson would say – burnt out, my arse.


    FaroFlyer
    Participant

    MarcusGB wrote

    “We know the Masks are not effective, apart from your sneezing out, they need changing, are rarely worn properly, and people’s behaviour negates their protection in them slipping them up n down n fiddling with them!”

    I think we all agree that masks are not an effective means of protection, but they are a good and simple visual reminder to take a little more care than previously, and to maintain higher hygiene standards than we used to, plus distancing

    4 users thanked author for this post.
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