Airports opening, airlines flying – the re-emerging of aviation.

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  • MarcusGB
    Participant

    It seems that That some of the far East and Pacific countries Airports, are preparing to open July / August.
    Clearly, in some interaction with some Airlines, plans appear to restore services then, and it is far from over sadly.
    Therefore, let us not forget the view of our country from outside, and how badly we have managed this, worst rates of death and infection.
    Which country is going to open up to have UK citizens arriving, having been the highest risk Worldwide, the reputation that is building?!!

    Many of us on here, have highlighted the fact, that our Borders were never shut, no measures taken to screen, No test, Track Tracing of anyone entering.
    Personally i find this quite shocking, considering we knew what was coming from the East, and it was being transmitted via travellers.
    The toll here has not finished, nor have the new cases.
    We have NO definition on this virus in terms of clear transmission, symptoms, treatment, vaccine. We are not sure if immunity prevents another episode or infection of others.
    We do not know IF immunity wears off, and it can resurface?
    If recovered, many with long trails for rehabilitation, or disability. It really is a shockingly devastating disease, disabling our own immune response to it.

    Lockdowns are opening up, yet we still do not know how many have had, or do have, or could carry and transmit this virus.
    This virus will not be going away, we have to live with it, until we have a certain vaccine, and it is very early on in scientific evidence to assist Medical interventions.
    There is no doubt that within the Medical and Nursing Professions, and Hospitals, that there will be another wave.
    We have a few weeks to see if the spikes on the positive readings discovered in the limited testing or Hospital admissions, will return and rise again.
    This is not an even on its own i fear.

    We all enjoy our travels, and indeed the great cultural mix and ability to experience our travels on the Forum, for Business and Leisure.
    I am itching to fly again, and i am sure we also need a holiday, equally want to have the Aviation sector supported again soon as.
    Though, some of the “Nuclear station” Airline uniforms , masks and changes to airports and on board, does not appeal at all to me, especially for long haul travel.
    Masks are going to be grossly uncomfortable, dining minimal, and interaction. and even using a bathroom awkward.
    All that we enjoy about Premium travel, will be limited, or removed, but severely restricted.

    i remain enthusiastic, and wanting to support travel and Tourism, our Airports, Airlines, and all employees along the chain in many Countries.
    But let us please be in no doubt, that this Virus will not suddenly end or we overcome it in the next few weeks and it is over.
    Much of The poor continents are being affected now, refugee settlements, and war torn or conflict affected places, and we seem to get little reporting on this. Little Health care, no chance of Social distancing…

    I hope, as i suggested before and was repeated on TV, that a “Pairing” of countries may make an agreement to accept people from each of two agreed countries will happen.
    That was we can at least a slow edge forwards. Short haul travel first, maybe within Europe, but the UK is still very live with this virus.
    Just because we have an easing of a late, and not as firm Lockdown period as others, no test track and trace, does not mean this will be over for us yet.

    An impossible situation of Economics, Vs Lives to be lost.
    If for some time we have no vaccine for this, or we discover it reforms or re-emerges, this is life changing for all our lives in the way we behave, interact, contact with other people.
    This simply makes some ways of life, everyday activities, impossible. Dining, having a drink / coffee with friends or work colleagues, the Arts audiences, so many aspects of our lives simply not possible, or radically changed. Just think in your life, what you cannot do just now, the so many interests we had before, to be changed, or no longer?

    I feel very unsure about the re-starting of Airlines or booking at this time, as early as July / August.
    And ethically, i really want to go spend and support my Airlines, Hotels, Tourism and travel, and other countries almost wholly depending on this.
    We shall have to see if this Government, having been slow it seems in comparison to almost all in Europe, has done enough, to prevent a 2nd wave.
    The Hospitals staff, paramedics, Police and all Keyworkers keeping us going, cannot carry on at this pace, or have to rise to higher peaks if it starts again.
    They are exhausted.

    So let us hope that Our Government, manage the re-introduction of travel, slowly, sensibly, pairing off say 2 countries, with an agreement to allow easy flow of Aviation initially. If it goes wrong, or we get a re-emerging of this, we could go into reverse.
    I strongly feel and hope, that World Aviation will re-emerge, but with the huge National Bailouts keeping many Legacy Airlines running, they may only get one chance.
    I cannot see these amounts of funding being repeated again.
    The view from overseas, is that UK travellers, are the last you want coming back just now, as their Pandemic record and episode, is simply not over yet.

    I still fail to comprehend, that to this day, our Borders are still open, no checks, no restrictions, no control over the free flow of the Pandemic onto our soil.
    I am sure, this will be the greatest legacy and error, this country will have made in terms of risk, and safe travel, for years to come, compared to any other European country.


    MartynSinclair
    Participant

    The view from overseas, is that UK travellers, are the last you want coming back just now, as their Pandemic record and episode, is simply not over yet.

    I still fail to comprehend, that to this day, our Borders are still open, no checks, no restrictions, no control over the free flow of the Pandemic onto our soil.
    I am sure, this will be the greatest legacy and error, this country will have made in terms of risk, and safe travel, for years to come, compared to any other European country.

    The above is hardly changing when the UK’s ‘non sterile’ quarantine comes into force. Everybody remains welcome into the UK.

    I would be interested Marcus to read your source for the first part of the quote, “The view from overseas, is that UK travellers, are the last you want coming back just now”

    For our overseas readers who perhaps don’t have up to date figures on the UK casualties, currently at least 37,048 COVID 19 registered deaths


    Roger
    Participant

    MarcusGB

    While very few people, I think, would argue that the UK has handled this pandemic well and our ‘open borders’ policy has been sensible, I’m not sure I can agree with other elements of your post.

    1. By no means all medical professionals & scientists agree on the likelihood of a second wave; there is indeed significant doubt as to whether this will happen. The science is nowhere near as certain as you seem to imply.

    2. The UK does not have the “worst rates of death and infection”. It has neither. The figures are bad enough, but they are not the worst.

    3. It is at the very least debatable whether the virus is as devastating as you suggest for younger, otherwise healthy people. The risk profile is very heavily skewed towards older people with serious pre-existing health conditions. That is not to say we shouldn’t be concerned about this (of course we should), but it does perhaps indicate that we should be cautious about how much collateral damage we cause by pursuing ‘cures’ that end up being much worse than the disease.

    4 users thanked author for this post.

    capetonianm
    Participant

    O’Leary’s call for easing of flight restrictions criticised by health experts
    Dr Gabriel Scally says Ryanair chief ‘might have a vested interest’ in seeking scrapping of quarantine

    Surely not?
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/o-leary-s-call-for-easing-of-flight-restrictions-criticised-by-health-experts-1.4263779


    SimonS1
    Participant

    The view from overseas, is that UK travellers, are the last you want coming back just now, as their Pandemic record and episode, is simply not over yet.

    I know the British way is to see the worst in everything and generally be gloomy, however to me this is as questionable as your unsubstantiated comment the other day that “Not to have closed the Borders has been a serious error, and has have cost many lives, as this virus was predominantly spread via people’s travel”. It is after all easy to make up emotional soundbites, a bit harder to actually justify them.

    Of course countries were reluctant to receive visitors from UK when the virus was at its peak, however numbers are now steadily falling and I haven’t heard anything to suggest UK will be discriminated against any more than USA, Brazil, Italy, Spain and/or other countries that have had high volumes.

    Also of course the reality is that many countries (like Kenya, South Africa etc) rely on tourists, these countries are not well equipped to withstand the economic shock and will look to open up for business asap. UAE also as a big expat hub, and is certainly no discriminating when compared to any of the other 9 countries where flights have started.

    Flights will restart (or indeed are already ongoing) from many places, not just in Europe….the pairing or corridor model may help for the purposes of avoiding quarantine, however more likely the whole quarantine model will collapse quite quickly as enforcement will be difficult and the Cummings saga has indicated that provided there is some ‘initiative’ involved most guidelines can be outmanouevred quite quickly, with a flight from Dublin for example.

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    MartynSinclair
    Participant

    Of course countries were reluctant to receive visitors from UK when the virus was at its peak

    of course the UK were and still are extremely welcoming to visitors of all countries when the virus was its peak….. (38,000 deaths later)….


    SimonS1
    Participant

    Of course countries were reluctant to receive visitors from UK when the virus was at its peak

    of course the UK were and still are extremely welcoming to visitors of all countries when the virus was its peak….. (38,000 deaths later)….

    How many of those 38,000 deaths were due to our open borders?

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    J_Pathmore
    Participant

    You don’t need to be an epidemiologist to understand that closing borders only works when cases are very low (think hundreds for a population of 50 million), or a population is really small. This would’ve only been possible in January, perhaps before the Chinese new year visitors returned to Europe by the 15th. Note that the US only closed borders to people that had been in the EU/China/Iran (and now Brazil) 14 days prior to arriving in the US, not all their borders. To that end, if you remove NYC from the US statistics, the death rate per capita compares to some of the best European countries, and is wildly better than Italy, UK, Spain, Belgium, Holland etc. And on top of it all there have still been thousands of dual nationality citizens travelling into the US from Europe every day.

    Once the virus is out and spreading the only thing to do is to contain it. Now that global cases are significantly lower than they were in March/April – and we know this virus isn’t going anywhere (and the death rates are wildly lower than thought when the lock downs started) – countries must open their borders and focus on protecting the vulnerable. It is a positive to have a bunch of young (ish) people running around with this virus, as the overwhelming majority don’t even go into the hospital system.

    For every US life saved roughly 500 people lost their jobs, and many will lose their livelihoods. Lockdowns, border closures etc. were somewhat understandable in the beginning when there was limited data on this, but they are quickly losing their scientific logic. I am pro choice. If people want to travel, or eat out, or drink a beer at a bar, they should be allowed to make that choice. If they feel vulnerable and scared, they can stay home as they already are. Either we all stay home, or some of us stay home. Though simplified, I hope the above logic makes sense.

    3 users thanked author for this post.

    SimonS1
    Participant

    Though simplified, I hope the above logic makes sense.

    Indeed, but far too complex for a Sun or Daily Mail reader to understand.

    And let’s face it not as much of a newspaper seller as a made up soundbite about open borders “costing many lives” or a media scrum on Dominic Cummings doorstep.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    MartynSinclair
    Participant

    How many of those 38,000 deaths were due to our open borders?

    You are sound like a broken record…

    Can you provide evidence that none of the 38,000 deaths were NOT caused by a continual influx of passengers from Italy, USA, Iran and Spain.

    38,000 deaths and increasing, currently the worlds ONLY 100% open border – the nation with the highest number of deaths, second currently only to the USA… These are shocking figures, made worse as we are an Island nation…

    On another thread, we have already agreed SimonS1 that neither of us can provide the evidence to justify each of our opinions.

    I honestly wish though, I could say, SimonS1, you are absolutely right with your opinion; our open border policy was the right strategy, after all, the UK has only suffered a minimal number of deaths overall!!


    esselle
    Participant

    Worth a quick look at Australia as a good case for controlling borders, size/density etc taken into account.


    SimonS1
    Participant

    How many of those 38,000 deaths were due to our open borders?

    You are sound like a broken record…

    Can you provide evidence that none of the 38,000 deaths were NOT caused by a continual influx of passengers from Italy, USA, Iran and Spain.

    38,000 deaths and increasing, currently the worlds ONLY 100% open border – the nation with the highest number of deaths, second currently only to the USA… These are shocking figures, made worse as we are an Island nation…

    On another thread, we have already agreed SimonS1 that neither of us can provide the evidence to justify each of our opinions.

    I honestly wish though, I could say, SimonS1, you are absolutely right with your opinion; our open border policy was the right strategy, after all, the UK has only suffered a minimal number of deaths overall!!

    No more tedious than you continuing to quote the current death toll every time you mention the UK border position, as there is no obvious linkage between the two.

    I have never denied there may have been some imported cases. But with passenger flights down by 97% it is not 38,000 or anything remotely like it.

    Clearly in the months to come we will all have choices to make. Those that choose to get on with their lives will be able to travel (Sweden, Ireland and UK open, plus I believe Netherlands, then Iceland 15/6, Italy on 3/6, Spain and Greece on 1/7), but of course nothing to stop the more nervous traveller self isolating for the next year if required…..

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    K1ngston
    Participant

    Of course countries were reluctant to receive visitors from UK when the virus was at its peak

    of course the UK were and still are extremely welcoming to visitors of all countries when the virus was its peak….. (38,000 deaths later)….

    Martyn you keep quoting this number, how many are related to open borders, to me its negligible… we really need to move onto the next chapter which is dragging the world out of this situation and get on with our lives …. I also dont believe the British are any more or less welcome than any other passport thats just poor journalism


    K1ngston
    Participant

    How many of those 38,000 deaths were due to our open borders?

    You are sound like a broken record…

    Can you provide evidence that none of the 38,000 deaths were NOT caused by a continual influx of passengers from Italy, USA, Iran and Spain.

    38,000 deaths and increasing, currently the worlds ONLY 100% open border – the nation with the highest number of deaths, second currently only to the USA… These are shocking figures, made worse as we are an Island nation…

    On another thread, we have already agreed SimonS1 that neither of us can provide the evidence to justify each of our opinions.

    I honestly wish though, I could say, SimonS1, you are absolutely right with your opinion; our open border policy was the right strategy, after all, the UK has only suffered a minimal number of deaths overall!!

    No more tedious than you continuing to quote the current death toll every time you mention the UK border position, as there is no obvious linkage between the two.

    I have never denied there may have been some imported cases. But with passenger flights down by 97% it is not 38,000 or anything remotely like it.

    Clearly in the months to come we will all have choices to make. Those that choose to get on with their lives will be able to travel (Sweden, Ireland and UK open, plus I believe Netherlands, then Iceland 15/6, Italy on 3/6, Spain and Greece on 1/7), but of course nothing to stop the more nervous traveller self isolating for the next year if required…..

    Simon I agree with you totally, we now have to start to look forward and not dwell on the past, I also agree there is no correlation between open borders and the death rate, I think as always you can create statistics the point now is moving forward


    Montysaurus
    Participant

    I didn’t realise BT had morphed into a medical journal. Is it not time to give this thread a rest?

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