[mkcol74]

[quote quote=773187]

Flightlevel wrote:

Crew like them closed to insulate the cabin and save heating, and thus fuel on longhaul.

Flightlevel, I’m curious by that remark. Was it tongue in cheek or does it really make a difference?

[/quote]

I wondered too. I’ve had that line spun to me on daytime flights with AA JFK-LAX-JFK….sometimes to save on heating the cabin, or when on the ground in LAX to help cool the cabin…

[Flightlevel]

No reason they should be so persistant unless its operational and on longhaul fuel use is important, 772 is weight limited Hkg – Lon so every little helps! Also why do so many airlines do the same, and why is the cabin so cold sometimes on longhaul?

[TCSH11]

[quote quote=773307] @tcsh11 – the same argument would not work if the majority of passengers in economy would prefer seats not to be reclined during the meal service. Cabin crew can make a request to a passenger but can not force a passenger to put a seat upright…especially if they are sleeping…

[/quote]

No they can not force them, but if your the only passenger where light is streaming in, then most of the passengers will be making requests etc, and if then the other passenger still refuses, it will become a situation that will fall on the crew to answer, and to defuse an argument, and its against the aviation law to ignore the instructions of the crew… in to sum up, Crew CAN MAKE someone to lower the window blind.

[Ahmad]

[quote quote=773314]

MartynSinclair wrote:

@tcsh11 – the same argument would not work if the majority of passengers in economy would prefer seats not to be reclined during the meal service. Cabin crew can make a request to a passenger but can not force a passenger to put a seat upright…especially if they are sleeping…

No they can not force them, but if your the only passenger where light is streaming in, then most of the passengers will be making requests etc, and if then the other passenger still refuses, it will become a situation that will fall on the crew to answer, and to defuse an argument, and its against the aviation law to ignore the instructions of the crew… in to sum up, Crew CAN MAKE someone to lower the window blind.

[/quote]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one …

[MartynSinclair]

I cant say that I have ever seen “World War 3” about to start over the window blinds. Sure, I am sometimes asked to lower the blinds on a day time flight, I will, but not fully and if a passenger complains, I will politely explain why I wish the blinds to up and it is always accepted by passenger and cabin crew. There has NEVER been a major confrontation about this.

Let me ask the reverse question. I genuinely have a fear about landing without being able to see outside. I like to know when the ground contact will happen and that it is on the runway, where the aircraft has landed. Stupid, silly, I know, but that is me. Several times crew have refused to ask for the blinds to go up and several times, passengers have kept the blinds closed so they can squeeze an extra few seconds of slumber… How would passengers feel if the blinds were kept permanently down?

[Ahmad]

@MartynSinclair, my wife does exactly the same. She hates the blinds down, day or night. So far, there has never been trouble. As to your question, I would try such a flight to see how it feels and then decide whether it is repeatable. The wife would refuse to sit on such a plane.

[FDOS_UK]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one …

So, I suppose that you think it is okay for everyone to eat nuts when someone with anaphylaxis is onboard?

Would someone please cite me the law that authorises cabin crew to insist on blinds being lowered outside times when (a) the airline SOPs require this, e.g. most airlines want them up for landing and (b) when specific laws of a country mandate it.

Finally, as the windows represent such a small % of the fuselage surface area, I don;tsee how closing them would make any material difference, in flight; on the ground, where aircraft tend to heat up very quickly in strong sunshine, then it makes perfect sense to close the blinds to reduce this effect and ease the load on air conditioning.

[Ahmad]

@FDOS_UK, the two examples cannot be correlated so I will keep my counsel on this one. Suffice to say that anyone with anaphylaxis that is severe enough to be triggered by microscopic particles of peanuts (or such other nut as the patient is allergic to) which invariably float around in a confined space where people are partaking the said nut should not be flying on a commercial aircraft where it is bound to happen unless the said nut is prohibited, by law, from being brought onboard. Even where it is so prohibited, there is likely to be the odd occasion some unsuspecting passenger may bring the offending nut onboard and open the container/bag before the same is confiscated by cabin crew.

On a serious note, I am not aware of any law that expressly requires window blinds to be open or closed at any given time. But don’t hold me to it as aviation law is not my forte nor are the myriad of national laws of countries where commercial aircrafts are registered. Having said that, obeying instructions of cabin crew are now mandated by the laws of many such countries and I will only disobey such an instruction if it were against the minimum international standard or in my opinion expressly contrary to the law of the country (i) of the aircraft’s registration if in the air or (ii) the location of the aircraft if on the ground.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=773339] @FDOS_UK, the two examples cannot be correlated so I will keep my counsel on this one. Suffice to say that anyone with anaphylaxis that is severe enough to be triggered by microscopic particles of peanuts (or such other nut as the patient is allergic to) which invariably float around in a confined space where people are partaking the said nut should not be flying on a commercial aircraft where it is bound to happen unless the said nut is prohibited, by law, from being brought onboard. Even where it is so prohibited, there is likely to be the odd occasion some unsuspecting passenger may bring the offending nut onboard and open the container/bag before the same is confiscated by cabin crew.

On a serious note, I am not aware of any law that expressly requires window blinds to be open or closed at any given time. But don’t hold me to it as aviation law is not my forte nor are the myriad of national laws of countries where commercial aircrafts are registered. Having said that, obeying instructions of cabin crew are now mandated by the laws of many such countries and I will only disobey such an instruction if it were against the minimum international standard or in my opinion expressly contrary to the law of the country (i) of the aircraft’s registration if in the air or (ii) the location of the aircraft if on the ground.

[/quote]

Dear Ahmad

With the greatest of respect, you wrote ‘The needs of the many outweight the needs of the one of the few.’ That is a very high level of abstraction, which is why I challenged your words – I do not accept it applies to window blinds on aircraft, since I don’t accept anyone ‘needs’ them to be closed on a day flight – prefers, yes, but then why does the individual’s preference to keep the window blind open suffer? I’ll quite happily accept the principle of utility in some important areas, but not this one – and that is from someone who will be grabbing a couple of hours sleep on a day flight the day after tomorrow.

I was hoping that TCSH11 would cite the law, as I believe his/her post was wrong. The crew can enforce the lawful commands of the commander, such as fasten your seatbelt, but cannot make stuff up on the spot, such as you have to close the window blind in the cruise (except when overflying certain areas).

[Ahmad]

Dear @FDOS_UK, I only cited the cliche “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one” to stir debate on the varying points of view of @MartynSinclairand @ TCSH11. I feel it is generally applicable when dealing with sociocultural issues. But, the contrary may apply to both opening/closing window blinds and reclining of seats in economy class if the same would be a genuine hazard to a passanger’s mental/physical well-being.

[FDOS_UK]

I have more sympathy with a utility argument when applied to the reclining seats in tight economy cabins. That can be physically unpleasant for the person behind and there is no mitigation, such as donning eyeshades.

One of the reasons I enjoy flying easyJet is that the seats are fixed.

[Ahmad]

Fixed seats are a no no for me on flights longer than an hour at the most. I don’t feel comfortable unless the seat reclines. But this is just a personal preference. When travelling economy or club that is actually economy seating, I always let the passenger behind me know before reclining my seat and always acceed to a request by cabin crew to straighten it during a meal service.

[DavidGordon10]

To answer TCSH11, icenspice and others….

Are they “my” windows? Yes, they are mine, but they are also everyone else’s, and there has to be compromise. I am a person who always sleeps with the curtains open, like Lugano Pirate, so blinds closed are not pleasant for me – so let me have a little window open to see the moon and the stars and the sunrise, and if you must sleep in complete dark, please use your eye mask. My reading light – still switched on long after you went to sleep – probably puts more light into the cabin anyway.

I know some like to sleep during daylight flights, but most of us will adapt better to changes in time zone if we are in bright light during daytime (that is, daytime at our destination). Therefore, on long westbound flights (far east to UK, UK to USA west coast), the more we use and enjoy the daylight, the better we will adapt. On overnight eastbound flights, the sooner we use the sunlight in the new time zone, the sooner we will adapt.

The kind of thing that is crazy was on a London-Mexico daytime flight this summer, where the 787 was plunged into darkness soon after leaving LHR, and the windows only cleared soon before landing. I do not want to spend a long daylight day trapped in a twilight cigar tube. It is bad for you.

[MartynSinclair]

@David – out of interest did you ask the crew to raise your blinds or were you being far too British and accepting of the situation? 🙂

[DavidGordon10]

Martyn, it was on the ghastly 787, so no chance of just a couple of blinds being raised. It is a plane that I avoid if there is an alternative, mainly for this reason.

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