[rickasia]

Thanks a lot nyphotoimages I like reply at poster like you that lloks like friendly.
To LindsayW I was referring to his post of 22-12-2009 (I’m new of this discussion so I started to read from the beginning).
Do you mean fellow > as guy pay for Business in J or F
Why J or F have something wrong if you can get ?
I pay my self all the 80 or more regional and intercontinental fly ticket I purchase during the year and I well know is hard to make money so if I have opportunity I pay discounted business fare, may you are allowed from your company or someone else to waste money or maybe you are not a self made woman…..As I said I care the substance, not too much at the formality and if I can save money to enjoy in different ways with my family I prefere.

[LindsayW]

riskasia, if you are going to reference a post that isn’t the most recent comment by the poster (or is long way back in the discussion) , may I suggest you advise us of that fact – his comment is 18 months ago. I had no idea that you were meaning the first post in this discussion…I am not a mind reader (my wife is :D)

Likewise, I pay for my own tickets, I am a business owner.

Bad presumption on your part that I was female, as last time I checked…..yep, I’m male. Very male. 😀

[rickasia]

Sorry Lindsay, my misunderstanding I didn’t want offend you.
Yes to be able to understand the post I read the top and scrolled down.
Have a safe trip.

[Binman62]

rickasia,,,,,. I too understood your post entirely but I fear your may have misunderstood mine.

I have flown for 30 years on work and leisure and have had wonderfully memorable experiences on aircraft and for the most part, have been fortunate to do so in the comfort or First Class and occasionally Club.

I now travel predominately for pleasure and with two children, and have done since they were infants. I have been able to continue to travel in First and Club and consider myself fortunate to do so. I also pay for my own fare and that of my family.

In paying for my ticket I am entitled to seat and a level of service commensurate with the fare I have paid. I am not entitled to be abusive, drunk, obnoxious or unpleasant and my children are not entitled to run amok.

My children are however just that, Children, they are not little angels and I do not expect them to sit silently or still for hours on end. They are set clear limits and I will intervene if they go beyond them.

In my view airlines have a role to play in keeping young children occupied and entertained and I have been critical and continue to be critical of carriers who seem unable or unwilling to meet the needs of kids, especially in premium cabins. For example they still get adult cutlery, table clothes, mini salt cellars and glasses to accompany food that you often would not get served in a school canteen!

In flight entertainment has improved but head phone for kids are rare indeed and the use of oddly shaped connectors means they cannot use their own.

Airlines need to remember that kids cannot simply drink themselves to sleep and pass out for 6 hours on a day light flight across the Atlantic.

In 30 years of travel the vast majority of bad experiences on aircraft have been caused by adults who were abusive, drunk, obnoxious or unpleasant. From those who snore to those who are strangers to deodorant and soap, even in First Class. It can and has made the journey difficult at times but I need to keep reminding myself that flying no matter the cabin, is no different to the London Underground or a no 9 bus, it is public transport and as such I need to deal with my fellow human beings and all their faults and failings and they mine. That includes dealing with crying infants and children and if I do not like it then I need to find an alternative form of transport. For some, that might mean buying a private plane.

[FlyingChinaman]

Binman62:

Very balanced view! But I don’t think airlines in general would make radical changes for the infants/kids as they all want to portray the premium cabins for style and elegance and Diseyland has no place for the Product Development Departments!

[rickasia]

I agree with you Binman62 that is a metter of fact air transportation is a public service and also often adult (because adult they haven’t any excuse) they are more bed educate than child but I can’t agree that cabin crew and fly company’s rules allowed to ignore the “ignorance” of certains parents (not the kids, the kids are jast a product and a mirror of us), exactly because 1st and business aren’t cheaper and the company like to represent these class like the top for the business travelers or rich leasure travellers they MAST adopt strictly policy to invite parents (not kids) to observ rules and have education, if they haven’t education someone mast teach them.

I remark that (as you) I pay on my own for the seat and if you make money honestly you don’t like to waste having unpleasant travels due silly policy to that has to satisfy any one jast because paying.
I learn from my parents doesen’t metter how much you have in your pocket, you mast get and give respect for you you are and what you do same should understand fly companys when peoples pay for a seat 2 or 3 month of a worker’s salary.

Moreover you are right when you mention the bus or MTR but these service except some reality (like 1st class MTR in Hong Kong) are thinked for every one and ofcourse they mast be suitable for small pocket, different is when we talk of 2000 / 3500 Euro, I’m sorry but I have to disagree with your sentence. I don’t need find an alternative transportation like private jet, is the carrier has to change policy.

[TiredOldHack]

Um, no, it’s not a public service, except in the case of the few state-supported airlines still left. It’s a business. Ultimately, though, I agree that adverse parental behaviour inevitably results in badly behaved children. Just my personal view.

[rickasia]

Yes TiredOldHack you are right however is an “open” expensive service that many uncarefully arrogant parents made unpleasent thanks to the totally PASSIVE policy currently applyed by 100% of the carriers to rosicate any cent possible making often advertisment about their 1st or business class a big expensive lie.

I’m senator in Lufthansa and I stop to fly awith them due the lie flat and no privacy seat and the massive qty of kids you find in the trip to and from HKG, on LH cabin crew they jast reply to you they can not discriminate any one so I discrimine them stopping fly.

Cathay and British are a little bit better but on BA my last fly from HKG to London was glad by two kids and a couple of parents looked like they bought all the site of first business section. I have to say. BA is losting many points due dirty blanket delivered with bad smell and hair in business class from BLQ to Gatwick and so on.

[LuganoPirate]

Let’s be glad we weren’t on this flight!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2013063/Octomom-Nadya-Suleman-plane-row-actress-Kristen-Johnston-12-noisy-children.html

[FlyingChinaman]

I can think of the blow pipe I’ve bought in the Amazon! I guess there is a reduced weaker dozage for the little ones.

Suleman should have travelled with some to control/pacify them as required.

Just been on a CX flight into Paris with FOUR families with babies and a total bliss. No noise at all! There are plenty of good parents and good darling babies in the world.

God bless them all!

[MartynSinclair]

This is nothing compared with getting on 767 with 150 teenagers on a school trip. I have to say all the Princes and Princesses were extremely well behaved, especially the one in seat 17b as that was my son!!

[FlyingChinaman]

Bravo Martyn! Another great parent!

Enough negative comments on this thread and we must mention the good ones!

Love the idea of a kindergarden flight!

Safe travel with the Angles in the Sky!

[LindsayW]

I agree that there are many more good children on flights than obnoxious ones.

My kids (4 year old daughter and 18 month son), wife and I have returned from 8 flights (4 of them longhaul, 7 of them in Business for me and my son whilst my daughter and wife had 5 in Business and 2 in First).

We were very fortunate that we planned well with feeding the children prior to all flights and they were angels on most sectors, with only my son having an hour cry on QF30 after take-off). That was due to him having been up since 4.45am Paris time to catch a 7.30am flight CDG/LHR, even thought he’d had a swim, followed by a 2 hour afternoon sleep, a swim and dinner at Hilton T4). By the 10.20pm QF30 take-off he was over-tired and I did everything I could to quieten him, including using the Skybed as a sound deadener, by placing him there when he was crying. I was fortunate that everyone was using their noise-reducing headphones).

One story that was memorable was regaled by my wife on the same flight. She was seated in First with my daughter, in 2E/F. When the male pax in 3F realised he was seated behind a child, he moved to Row 6. Needless to say, my daughter wasn’t heard from during the flight, after sleeping first up then watching Nomeo & Juliet twice in a row after breakfast. I hope he realised that his move was in vain).

We had a number of positive comments on our long haul flights from other pax who were pleasantly surprised by their demeanor. My story was on the sector HKG/MEL, where I saw the old lady seating in 23A eyes flick with concern when we sat down. We had fed him dinner (mashed potato) in the First Lounge for the 6.55pm flight and he was asleep just after push back. He then proceeded to sleep for 5 hours, after which he woke and just wanted to walk, so I took him to the toilet area and walked him up and down the stairs which he loved). Upon returning to our seat after a change of nappy at the same time, HR then talked happily to me and her until breakfast – with more trips to the stairs in those hours to keep him happy).

We had other children on our flights and caught up with them and their parents on our regular trips to the toilets and standing up in the back area). Most had similar experiences to ours, well fed babies or children (and not sugar based treats) will generally assist in keeping them contented – ably assisted by crayons/pencils, DVD’s or similar. Having a dedicated childrens programs is important – just ask my daughter, who watched every program on CX Studio on the HKG/LHR sector).

[PerthWA]

Oh dear I had to laugh binman …. Obnoxious kids/parents in the same category as those who have the misfortune to “snore”?
I guess the major difference being… Obnoxious kids generally have equally obnoxious parents who can while awake at least control their repulsive offspring but perhaps they don’t know the difference … Whereas the poor old snorer probably doesn’t know he/she does and if snoring could be cured one suspects there may be far fewer unhappy marriages …. Just a thought … From a parent of an exceptional flying child and the partner of a unintentional snorer…..but I’m definitely with you on the personal hygiene side of things… Yuck!

[summerhill]

Dear Rickasia:
There is no use in trying to convince parents that people who have no kids don’t exactly feel like taking a risk on having their trips ruined, first class or otherwise.
I have tried the following:
1. Bring ear plugs
2. Go into Tourist class from first/business and find a quiet spot. There may be crying babies, but parents of crying babies in tourist are usually less entitled and more considerate of CERTAIN parents of disturbing or disturbed kids in business/first. There was a time that kids from wealthy families were taught to behave better, but welcome to the 21st century, many children, not all, of business or show people often have a hard time understanding the concept of not disturbing strangers.
3. Don’t rely on the staff to do anything. You will find one in a hundred who cared or dared,
4. I don’t know what airline you fly on. I would for a start avoid SOME Asian airlines. Many of the stupid air hostesses have a dual standard, one for Asians and one for Caucasians. Notice how they can be far more obsequious with Westerners than with Asians. You won’t win any points there. Yanks or Cowboys might not be so prim, but in the end American staff tend to be more even-handed and less impressed with post-colonialism, or at least more aware of it.
5. In North America and certain countries where there is society security benefits, childless citizens pay taxes with no advantage for having kids, they rely on younger people, or other people’s kids to work and pay into the system which pays for their monthly allowances in retirement. So they/we put up with other people’s kids as well.
6. There are parents with truly angelic kids, there are parents with kids who are kids (danger zone) and there are parents with little monsters who will grow into big monsters. In most cases you will have a very hard time to convince any parent that their little angel is not so angelic. So give up that battle.
7. You can vent, but don’t try to psych anyone out. Don’t call anyone jealous. You can’t comment on people’s mind. You can comment on others’ behavior though, in a civil manner.
8. As to some people on this site, some opinions seem to rule, and anyone who wants to say anything other than what they/he thinks is usually insulted in some way, whether you started it or not. In this instance, sadly, you seemed to have begun this in the fact put-down.
9. Colonialism takes a long time to die out. This is an Anglo forum and you will not win any arguments here.
10. Good luck and try different airlines. We have found over the decades that KLM staff most of the time have a way with kids so that they don’t get out of hand too much. Though the Dutch were also colonists in last centuries most of them seem to have gotten it out of their DNA, and they are not particularly impressed with one set of kids over another set of kids, any form color or shape. Of course there are exceptions but fewer. The only obnoxious people we have ever encountered on KLM First are loud business people of all nationalities drunk on company funds. Alas the evil of capitalism run amok.
OH. FORGOT TO SAY, ” Everyone might want to read SUMMERHILL to learn about an alternative way of viewing children’s behavior and how to approach it.

[Author]

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