[Binman62]

Hess963…Thanks for this. Feel it vindicates my suggestion that there are worse things on flights than kids…..Use of language such as that described in the article is unacceptable at any time and she was rightly removed. Well done that airline.

[Travelcruiser]

For some years now I’ve wanted to mount a campaign called ‘Ban Babies from Business Class’. In my opinion no one under the age of 12 should be allowed to travel in a premium class cabin. It’s called ‘business’ class for a reason.

[Hicham10]

Not too sure I would agree, premium cabins have a variety of names, and to be honest I dont see that much work if any going on. Yes there are the paper shufflers, who seem to have too much time and effort to see whats going on in the cabin rather than their ‘work’ but the flight is not an extension of my office, cant imagine it ever will be.

We go Club/Business etc for the space, IFE, comfort and ground facilties, and sometimes enjoy the meals (but not essential, thats what restaurants are for). I really dont mind children in Club as they are a distraction at times, called real life, also we are not the types who fly different members of the family in different cabins, thats just too cheap, and that type of person is ‘look how important I am’. Always going back and forward to the other cabin or asking for their spouse etc to be upgraed so they are not separated. But its probably the case that they cant afford to take the whole family in a premium cabin or they are using miles etc to up grade etc. As always I say if you want to fly in a particular cabin self or family, pay for it.

However, in 1st I do expect a quiet and relatively placid cabin.

[RHMAngel]

Been a while since I posted, but this provoked me.

I don’t wish to be ‘class-ist’ but most for Business Class (not flown first unfortunately), are flying for business (strange that), meaning we want sleep, yes that precious flat bed, quiet and a calm cabin.

While I accept babies and infants have every right to travel with their parents, in business class, one screaming baby in the MIDDLE of the cabin (the family weren’t even put at the back or front) disturbed everyone. I knew my corporate travel had paid a good few thousand for this long-haul – and complained to the stewardess.

While they couldn’t do anything, other than apologise – nothing more was done 😮 no hint of compensation (not even a hot cocao with rum, for me or that screaming baby)

I reminded them this seat had cost a LOT of money for my company, and I had to work right up to the flight, and again getting off, it was an overnight flight, and the whole point is the bed.

What policy can cabin staff enforce for those paying a lot of money (even if its not their own)…its a dilemma that bothered me, and every time if there’s one thing I pray for, its not the fat person not being by me, its the kids or babies – in business class. Or at least can airlines put these familes in one spot out of the way, NOT the middle of the entire BC cabin.

JBeaumount – totally agree with you on every front !

OK whinging over with…

[OneA]

We all hate unruly behaviour from any aged passenger in planes and it can happen whatever the class of cabin. It could be the pharmaceutical rep, a little the worse for wear, flying to Cape Town with BA next to me in Club who tossed and turned spilling more of my wine than any turbulence ever could (new “flimsy” club world – NOTE VK! ;-)). It could be the “typical” occasional J class traveller who is determined to get VFM for the ticket price paid – irrespective, it seems, as to who has actually paid for the ticket!
However on a lighter note, whilst flying back from LAX this summer (BA Club) with my wife and 16 year old daughter (always been well behaved in such environments) I was sitting next to an impeccably behaved 10 year old young lady who smiled at me and asked me if I had had a nice time in LA. I replied that yes indeed I had and we were returning from a lovely summer holiday etc etc. I asked if her Mum and her Dad were with her to which she replied “Yes, that’s my Mum there(the upper deck Pursar) and my Dad is flying the plane (the Senior First Officer)!! Priceless!
A very happy new year to all contributors and may 2010 be an enjoyable flying year for us all!

[bombayteddy]

Having spent one “memorable” night in SQ First, totally at the mercy of a shrieking infant being tossed around between a couple of teenage “care-givers” and overseen by someone called “Francis” who was LOUDLY addressed, ever-so-often, to help silence the babe, I fully sympathise with anyone who wants to ban such nuisances in premier-class cabins!

But perhaps a “ban” would be too draconian: how about if airlines were to keep a reserved seat or two in the front of Economy; and move ANYONE who disturbs the peace, to this location?

[Tom Otley]

SimonRowberry has already referred to the other thread on this topic, which contains much of relevance ( I would merge them, if I could) including Simon’s own advice on travelling with children

(The first 15 or so threads are concerned with fat passengers, but after that the discussion turned to babies/ children….)

Actually, no matter what I do, the link doesn’t work, but if you click on forum on the toolbar it is still in the most viewed section on the left – sorry about that)

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/The-fattest-person-I-have-ever-sat-next-to…

Happy New Year.

Tom Otley

[SimonRowberry]

Hi Tom and everyone.

A very Happy and Healthy 2010 to all.

I was prepared to get a tad wound up about some of the expected responses to this thread but I actually find I agree with most of what you’ve all said.

Flew AY in Cattle LHR-HEL-VNO a few days ago and noticed more than a few silly people at the back – once we’ve landed it’s safe to take the belt off, etc. The usual stuff. However, the biscuit was taken by some guy who managed to stand up 30 seconds after we’d touched down at VNO and proceded to get his hand baggage from the locker and walk to the front of the plane. He was obviously a rare flyer (thank God) and when he was told to sit down and got a sustained round of applause from most of the other pax, I did feel for him.

Not just kids……

Have a good one, one and all, and let’s keep arguing and helping for another 12 months.

Simon

[Inquisitive]

The originator did not mention the airlines. Normally, the crew take care of noisy kids (and people), I am surprised, it did not happen in this case. I have one experience in SQ, the parents were travelling in business class and the grown-up children in economy. After take off, the children came to see the parents and was making quite a noise. (in new SQ seat, twp person could seat comfortably). Within few minutes of staring/glaring from other passengers, the crew came and told the parents very politely and firmly that this is not allowed and remove the kids. For all children behaviour, the parents are to be blamed. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of well behaved children in business class. Another point is the availability/varity of entertainment. On few occassions, my children travelled with me in business class in SQ, they were totally engrossed with the AVOD system.

[degreecy]

Having two young kids myself, I understand the situation from both perspectives. I fly a lot of business and yes noisy kids would disturb me too. It is up to the parents to try and control the behaviour of their kids on the flight. However, sometimes, you can’t always control a crying/upset baby and if I was the parent I would feel highly embarassed.

However it should also be appreciated that kids over the age of 2 have to pay for their tickets… so a business class fare for a 2 year old is often full fare, even using miles its the same as an adult.

As some people have said, they deserve to be in business more than the children. However, the children may have paid the same amount for their flights… so they don’t deserve a place in business class ? The airlines need the money and gladly take it.

[usainbxl]

I must respectfully disagree with degreecy. Whether or not children are revenue or mileage-paying passengers is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Essentially that argument leads in the direction of (bluntly put): “I paid for it, so I can behave however in the hell I want.” Despite some people unfortunately believing this, most people will agree that money doesn’t give one the right to break the rule … whether those rules are written rule or social normal of common courtesy. Disregarding those social normals is either a blatant attack on those around the offender or a lack of self awareness.

I believe there is a time and a place for almost everything. I, an adult, shouldn’t show up at a children’s playground to read a book and then complain that the children are running around making noise. Likewise, parents and children shouldn’t come into a business or first class cabin — utilized mostly be people that value on-board privacy, calm, ability to work or relax — and utilize the space as they would their playground.

I’m sympathetic that sometimes outbursts are unexpected and uncontrollable … sometime my dog jumps on people and I wish he wouldn’t. Sometimes babies cry on airplane despite their parents best efforts to comfort them. In both cases the responsible adult must take appropriate action to ensure those in their charge are not disruptive to innocent people around them.

[Binman62]

usainbxl……..You and I will have to agree to disagree I suspect…..
You do make some valid points but what really is required is good parenting, good manners and good service. What kids don’t need is banning orders or prohibition. If we ban them how can we expect them to grow into socially adept adults?

It is in my experience it is adults who fail to behave to the social norms…after all children are children and we should not, indeed we must not, expect them to be adults no matter the surroundings. Well behaved yes, children certainly, but not adults. Their childhood is already too short.

As I stated earlier I have endured the hygienically challenged the snorers and the down right rude, none of whom behave to the social norm and I can tell you that being stuck next to, or indeed in the same cabin as, someone with BO for 10 hours is thoroughly unpleasant.

I travel with my kids in First and god help them if they play up. But whilst I do not expect them to sit still, I do expect that the airline will provide them with a service that meets their needs and which provides them with a level of distraction, suitable to their age, in much the same way as the airline does for me. Head phones that fit along with decent in-flight entertainment would be start. Catering too needs to meet the needs of the customer both in terms of cutlery, dishes and glassware as well as what goes on the plate. All too often kid’s meals in first and business are often simply economy meals put on a china plate. This is not acceptable and neither is junk food filled with e numbers and sugar…….the kids equivalent of too much alcohol. Food that meets national nutritional standards and is presented well is what is required. No different in other words to an adult requesting a special meal on dietary or religious grounds.

Airlines differentiate their products to make money and not just by class, but by fare type as well, resulting in a variety of passenger types in each cabin. Some want to sleep, some to work, some for the experience. Kids are no different and airlines need to provide services to meet those needs on the ground and in the air. Kids after all are airlines future revenue and have potential high lifetime worth. Kids are also very discerning, often more so than adults, and have very long memories and a great deal of pester power.

[SimonRowberry]

Binman,

Well said. I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said, yet again. I thoroughly concur with your comments re child meals – too often it is, as you say, uninspiring, junk or (on some carriers) just horrible. I always check when I book a child meal exactly what it is likely to comprise. I don’t always get a consistent answer of course…..

Overall, I agree with your thinking in your post.

Regards,

Simon

[usainbxl]

Binman, I don’t think we’re disagreeing too much at this point actually. I don’t really support “banning” people, including children, from First Class … although I’m not sure what appropriate consequences would be for parents that fail to be as responsible as yourself with their children.

I wanted to follow up though on your hope for age-appropriate in-flight video and meals… All I can say is good luck! Although I think you deserve it. I can empathize with you on this one though … I’m vegetarian and eat fish, but I never both ordering a vegetarian meal (thankfully, fish is served more frequently reliably in the last few years) because of the “economy meal dumped onto a plate” phenomenon you described. For any health-conscious dinner, adult or child, relying on an airline to do you right is a recipe for disaster unless you pick and choose. I find it amazing though how many people, especially in business class, seem to look forward to that re-headed meal and eat things presented to them that they wouldn’t otherwise touch if they were on the ground!

So, it’s not just the children not getting what they want to eat in F … the rest of us that used to enjoy Krug are suffering too with now cheaper, less differentiated alternatives.

[degreecy]

usainbxl, I’m not saying that we paid for it therefore the children can behave as they like. I said it was the parents responsibility to try their best to keep them well behaved.

What I was saying is to comments previously where some people think that children should be banned from business class when they have paid the same fare as the adult.

Most parents do try and make the children behave quietly and properly whether in economy or business – it is the odd case where people don’t behave responsibility and let their kids run riot – which is completely unacceptable and what has sparked this debate in the first place.

[Author]

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