[canucklad]

Afternoon AD, indeed we have disagreed & rferguson I agree with you.
I’m not having a pop specifically at BA & AA, the same argument could be levelled at QF & NZ with their past agreement over the Tasman, and many more examples can be cited.

My point is that on the surface, there seems to be consumer choice, yet dig deeper and that choice is eroded. Maybe I should change the word from cartel to collusion!!

I will repeat my prediction that if the current trend continues, we will ultimately have just 4 global players.

1) Oneworld Airways
2) Star Airlines
3) Air Skyteam
4) Emirates

Our well known and unique national carriers will be just become regional feeder operatives into their bigger brand.
Goodbye Darwin and your Swiss identity and Hello Etihad, but on a bigger scale!

[rferguson]

Canucklad + 1

If these agreements lowered fares or increased choice airlines would never

[rferguson]

Canucklad + 1

The airlines are in the business of making as much revenue and profit as possible with the least amount of competition possible.

They enter these joint service agreements because it will boost revenues and give them dominant positions of routes.

They love to dress the agreements up as ‘to benefit the consumer’ but it’s in the same guise as ‘we’ve released a new improved wash bag – by removing the eye shades and ear plugs’.

If these agreements lowered fares or increased choice airlines would never enter into them because that is the opposite they want to achieve.

The legacy carriers have been at the forefront of these alliances because they can leverage pressure on the competition authorities in the sense of ‘you pass it or we go bust’.

[SimonS1]

I thought airline fares were now lower in real terms than they have ever been?

[londonlad]

I wonder how Virgin are faring on the DXB route. They have already downsized to a 330, I wonder given the huge competition whether they will continue to serve it in the future?

[rferguson]

Simons1 on many routes in some cabins real fares have come down – where competition has forced it. Noticeably within Europe and from Europe to Asia and Australia. Fare sensitive passengers usually won’t be put off by a stop in the Mid East en route to Bangkok or Hong Kong.

But in markets where the locos and Asian/gulf carriers aren’t a threat – Europe to the US, LATAM and Africa fares (especially in the premium cabins) have increased. If you do a search of fares and divide it by £ per km you will see the difference between London – Bangkok and London – São Paulo for instance.

[SimonS1]

Maybe, but isn’t it the case that in real terms airline fares to the USA are lower than they were 10 years ago?

[MarcusUK]

I am down in Australia at the moment…

Certainly is news of the subsidy Qantas that is maybe offered by the Prime Minister here…
SMH article this am…

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/virgins-richard-branson-escalates-war-of-words-with-qantas-20140211-32fox.html

I flew over with Etihad, mix of Business then First on the longer AUH -SYD sector. The flights are full in all classes and far superior in every single aspect to most other Airlines service. The Chauffeur service, to the 5 star dining in the lounges, individually walked taken to the aircraft (1st) to the unique on board cabins, seating, and the dining when you like, from a huge range of world foods, prepared in a kitchen by the chef, or F & B staff. You have 1-2 nights stopover in AUH provided complimentary by Etihad, and can choose your own 5 star hotel, with cars to and from. Additional nights will be at half the usual price.
With two £2,750 return LHR-AUH-SYD Business fares, you gain almost £1,000 of benefits additionally with transfers and hotels.
Other Airlines, even the best of (SQ, MH…) and EU airlines choose not to, or cannot compete.

Virgin Atlantic come no-where near this level of service, and in my experiences in recent years, i chose not to fly them any longer, despite being a Gold FC member. I saw them going downhill a long time ago, and had poor flights (as i recall many expressing on here).

But there is a major shift from routing via Asia, to flying via The Gulf Airlines from Europe. It is the service level, the fare cost, the additional services that are offered to you, and the standard and comforts of the aircraft. fares. I did not like SQ’s move from SIN -SYD to classify this as Md haul service, with one meal either at night or for breakfast, and inter Asia seats, a few years ago.

Also fares from Australia to Europe, are far greater than commencing from Europe, 40% more for economy, and double for Business up. they have a good reputation, profitable for the Gulf carriers and far preferred by the Australians, and expanding. Flights with Etihad cover Sydney up to twice a day (notably some with Virgin Australia), and many more with Emirates, some traveling on to NZ, gaining additional custom from there, and indeed between OZ and NZ.

I also agree that Etihad clearly has a strategy of developing its own network, through investments and co-operations. they will be expanding more this year, and some exciting developments i hear from the Cabin Manager!
Emirates simply wishes to knock other Airlines and take their business, it is confrontational.

As for travel down to Australia, services have been cut back, scaled down, and standards dropping with many Airlines, where-as The Gulf Carriers have expanded and added value and comforts.
The Frequent flyer benefits,( levels for 2 years with Etihad not one), can be earned quicker, and offer much more spend and perks.

So, it is a simple choice, based on quality, and economics for me…

[LuganoPirate]

Simon, not only in real terms but nominal ones as well. Going back 10 year I don’t think I’ve ever seen fares so cheap across the pond as I have now. I recently saw a promo economy for just £299. Amazing!

The cheapest ever I’ve seen or can remember was Laker’s £50 one way, but that was well over 30 years ago. I wonder what that equates to in real terms today?

[LuganoPirate]

Marcus, from what you describe, and it all sounds fabulous, I see more and more why people choose the ME3. Given all that I would as well.

Economy fares ex S. Africa with the Legacy’s are certainly more expensive, though cheaper in the premium cabins thanks to the Rands weakness.

QR and EK both offer more competitive fares and plenty of frills – if you live in JNB or CPT that is – but I’m still put off by that midnight plane change. QR is better in this regard, but EK’s 1 am arrival and 3-4 hour wait puts me off them completely.

[SimonS1]

LP – interesting really. That was my perception. Clearly there must be competition across the pond for that to happen…

[LuganoPirate]

I’m not so sure Simon. Gone are the days when it was £50 to NY and $50 to return. When I last looked fares were more expensive than from the UK. Perhaps it’s to do with the greater competition from other carriers that uk carriers have, and now EK have traffic rights MXP – NYC.

While certainly the Americans put price pressure on the Europeans some years ago, I think it’s the other way round now.

I know it’s now a bit off topic, but I’m wondering if anyone has experience of ex US fares? I think we’d all find it interesting.

[r ryan]

To put in my 6 pence worth, going thru on the same aircraft long ago ceased to be of any import for me; basically I have been travelling from Oz to Europe for more years than i care to think about; and have used straight thru services (e.g. BA, same aircraft all the way), straight thru same carrier (e.g. SQ or TG, but change of aircraft in Asia) and combined, using two carriers e.g. QF to Asia then Swiss to Europe

While you would think that the straight through on same metal would be the best way to go, I have actually found a change of carrier works fine, and often preferable because usually you get 2 to 3 hours in the changeover, so time for a meal and shower and on we go. Funnily enough, almost every time I have used BA metal all the way thru, something has gone wobble on the aircraft in Singapore and there is a delay. Frankly an aircraft can go u/s at any point, and there is no guarantee a straight thru is any more reliable than a connector.

So really, I have no problem with a change of carrier half way to Europe. I have given the Swiss combo tickets a good flogging the past few years because they allow an array of carriers form Oz to Asia and vv, and frequently I use a different one in each direction e.g. SQ on the way up and CX, QF or TG on the way back with a stop in Asia in one or both ways. The connections with Swiss are good.

There is always the possibility of a stuff up with baggage transfer with delayed/tight connections but usually J and F are looked after and I must say we have been very lucky the airlines have managed that ok so far (touch wood!)

As far as I am concerned, the two carrier thing to Europe works fine, so if BA or QF stop flying all the way, no big deal.

[austline]

I think that Qantas needs to think outside of the box and with new aircraft and take off weight – A380 why not offer Perth/LHR/Perth non stop, if you can’t beat them then take them on with a new product.

Feed from the East Coast would be easy and QF would have a monopoly but unfortunately with AJ at the helm this will never happen.

[BA744fan]

UK – Australia non-stop flights have been discussed many times. Firstly, the A380 doesn’t have the range. The 787 might be able to do it.

The arguments against it are:
1. the airlines would have to carry 2 crews for such a long flight
2. planes would require additional fuel capacity which increases weight
3. how much demand is there for a 15-16 hour flight
4. as most traffic would then be connecting to a second flight, they might as well use an existing service with a stop more or less in the middle of the journey.

[Author]

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