[passionateflyer]

Papillion53

An intriguing situation and immensely satisfying to read – please keep us posted! I wonder how the conversation might go up the top when the escalated case reaches them…! Surely they must be aware of article 5, which begs the question, do they try and turn a blind eye to it in the hope of passenger ignorance?

[SimonS1]

I must say I do find it sad when companies try to avoid their legitimate responsibilities. Let’s hope it’s a misunderstanding not a deliberate attempt to avoid taking ownership.

[Papillion53]

Just had the DH playing “devils advocate”! Along with, “you still looking for flights, what about my tea!!!” Only kidding on the last bit, but he will have to wait!

He wondered if as its a flight ex Australia, SYD to HKG, would we be covered under EU legislation? But as the flight was booked and paid for in the UK presumably EU law applies and I again presume they are operating as a British company? Money paid in the EU.

Don’t know, just wondering out loud! Any thoughts appreciated. 🙂

I’m just also thinking back when we were rerouted, involuntarily, with AA last year, they rebooked us into the same class. I know it’s a slightly different situation, but still it was a redemption booking.

Also had a dig around on the VS website in their t and c’s bit, and they do quite clearly state that a reward ticket is not classed as a “free ticket”, so that’s something else to remind them of, if we have to.

Patience is a virtue, I know, and I suppose no news is good news, at least it’s not a straight no. I wonder how many people are affected by this. I truly feel sorry for those who have booked a trip of a lifetime with VS, saved hard for it and have been looking forward to it. Hopefully they will be rebooked on another carrier without too much fuss, but if I hadn’t read this today on BT, I would still be blissfully unaware. The funny thing is we recently changed our dates of travel from earlier in the year, and before checking I was thinking, well you can imagine what I was thinking, but when I checked we had been due to travel on the 7 May! I think that would have been worse!

[AMcWhirter]

Hello Papillion

Unfortunately you’re not covered under EU rules as although VS is an EU carrier it is, in the case of SYD-HKG, operating between two non-EU points.

See a recent Ask Alex where a reader flying SYD-SIN with BA asked an EU compensation question.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/ask-alex/2013/should-ba-pay-for-a-seven-hour-flight-delay-in–

[rferguson]

What will be interesting to see if Virgin Australia’s next longhaul destination is Sydney – Hong Kong.

[Ab0dache]

Virgin Australia says it does not have any intention yet to open new international routes. Maybe opinions may change later.

Although Hong-Kong would be a nice addition to Virgin Australia network, there are already lots a daily flights offered by the competitors on the HKG-SYD route. And what about the agreement with Singapore Airlines & Etihad? Aren’t the Virgin Australia customers supposed to fly on those airlines to go to Hong-Kong, Asia or Europe when having bought a VA ticket?

I wonder now how long Quantas is going to stay on the Dubai-LHR segment in a kind of geographical reverse thought from Down under. Quantas has already given for free its international business to Europe to Emirates. Air NZ has stopped its HKG-LHR segment. Now VS on the HKG-SYD route. Who is next?

[transtraxman]

This is the same news as published on “Routes Online” 4-2-14
“Virgin Atlantic to close Sydney service from May 2014”.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/238628/virgin-atlantic-to-close-sydney-service-from-may-2014/

May I highlight two points in the article…
“It is currently not clear if this decision is part of a wider group strategy that could see Virgin Australia launch its own flights from the likes of Sydney and Melbourne to Hong Kong using its Airbus A330s and feeding into the London flights of its sister carrier. The A330 would be better suited to the route pair than the larger four-engined A340-600 that is currently deployed on the London – Hong Kong – Sydney routing by Virgin Atlantic.”

“Our own analysis of MIDT data shows that the market between London and Sydney has changed dramatically over the past five years as the traditional market leaders have seen their own share of the demand decline significantly. The end of the relationship between British Airways and Qantas and the latter’s new partnership with Emirates Airline has seen the UAE hub carrier as the principal winner in this market with the multiple daily flights it and Qantas now offer.”

“Interestingly, Virgin Atlantic grew to its largest share of the O&D traffic between London and Sydney in 2012, up just below 50 per cent on the previous year and almost double its performance in 2011, but this was likely to have had an adverse reaction to yields. On a positive note, our data shows that Virgin Atlantic actually carried more O&D passengers between London and Sydney than British Airways last year,……”

The accompanying graph also shows BA`s share of the London-Sydney market dropping at a faster rate than any other carrier. The gainers are the Gulf carriers – yet again!

Therefore, the ball seems to be in BA´s court. What will it do, alone, with Qatar and/or with Malaysian? – both oneworld partners.

[Papillion53]

AMcWhirter@18:18

Yes I realise we are not due compensation and I’m not asking for any, but simply to be rebooked into the class we have booked and paid for. A refund for the miles we bought would be nice, but I don’t think that will ever happen!

I’m a bit disappointed as I haven’t flown UC in a very long time, so was curious, but I’ll get over it! 😉

Anyway, we will see what transpires, needless to say haven’t heard anything yet.

Btw, your link doesn’t work, but I found the article.

Thanks 🙂

[AMcWhirter]

Sorry about the link not working.

I was just trying to explain that EU rules on that particular sector would not apply because it was outside the EU.

Do hope you will get booked in the correct cabin. I imagine that VS is busy negotiating with a number of airlines for seats to honour bookings already made.

[LuganoPirate]

I couldn’t read the article Alex, but as the ticket was bought and paid for in the UK (EU) and it is a through ticket on a VS plane, I think Papilllion would fall under the UK’s consumer protection act and would be entitled to be re-routed on another carrier in Business Class? Was the person you mentioned only flying SYD – SIN?

I also noticed on the website they codeshare with SIA. Surely then they should put passengers on SIA metal in the class for which they have booked?

I wouldn’t let it go Papillion, I think if you persevere VS will do the decent thing in the end!

[rferguson]

A quick search for fares on Expedia demonstrates why it’s not worth Virgin Atlantic flying LHR-SYD with it’s own metal.

I searched 11Mar outbound, 18Mar return checking refundable and non refundable fares in Business to both Hong Kong and Sydney with Virgin.
LHR-HKG-LHR
J flex: £7485 return
J restrictions: £4173 return

LHR-HKG-SYD-HKG-LHR
J flex: £8111 return
J restrictions: £4046 return(!!)

So due to the competitive market on the SYD route (and the fact that EVERY airline from the UK has to touch down enroute at some point – diminishing any competitive advantage of flying ‘non stop) it is actually cheaper for the flight all the way to Sydney than to Hong Kong!!

What’s more, on Virgin’s LHR-HKG-LHR sectors they obviously have to make capacity available for the through passengers to Sydney with a much smaller return than they could get if they were only selling seats as far as Hong Kong.

Stopping the route seems a no brainer really.

Using the same method and same date with BA flights also produces similar results:

LHR-SIN-LHR
£6120 J Flex
£3273 J restricted.

LHR-SIN-SYD-SIN-LHR
£8108 J Flex
£4042 J restricted.

It demonstrates once again that the SIN-SYD tag just doesn’t justify itself in revenue or yield terms. It costs under £1000 for an additional return flight which is the equivalent mileage or say London to New York return – not to mention the near twelve hours the aircraft has to sit on the ground in Singapore.

So despite BA saying the route is performing better with an uplift in profit, what is a more pertinent question is whether BA will decide that costly 777 is going to generate a better return on a different route.

[canucklad]

What we need to take into account here, is the shifting importance in Geo –politics.

Australians are probably subtlety shifting their identity from an English speaking part of the western world and realising that they are more dependent on becoming an important influencer in the Pacific Rim.

Sadly for Australia is has to manage its isolation, the balancing act of maintaining strong relationships with its historical friends (UK/ US/ Canada/ SA) whilst garnering favour with powerful neighbours (China/ Indonesia) must be akin to a long tailed cat dancing in a room of mousetraps.

National carriers have long been used as a tool of their governments to project foreign policy, sometimes with such shrewdness that diplomats are secondary to the presence of the airline.

If BA follow VS it will say a lot about the capitulation of UK PLC to the Middle East, and more importantly how we rate Australia as an important friend in world!
On the flip side of the coin, if QF decides to pull out of its LHR operation the same can be said in reverse.

Finally, it does seem to me that the world, rather than getting smaller has gone in the other direction. The thought of having to use another countries airline to get to the other side of the world seems rather sad!!i

[Papillion53]

Good morning everyone! 🙂

FDoS – I could kiss you darling! 😉 :-)))

Just had a phone call from this delightful chap at VS and he has us rebooked on CX in business class on the same date we were originally booked. It was escalated to someone else (legal bod) and he could not apologise enough that they has not been given the correct information initially.

So thanks everyone for your support, it’s very much appreciated.

Now just one thing please, can someone who is a member of FT, please go on to the Virgin forum and tell a chap over there (Tim_T) who has been refused rebooking, same case scenario as me, and that he needs to speak to them again. I was searching on there yesterday for information – apologies BT for this but I would like to help someone else if I can :-). Thank you for this to whoever can do it ASAP! 🙂

[canucklad]

Great news Papillion, good to see the forum( FDoS) has come to the aid of a fellow BT’er

And being moved to CX —well that must almost feel like an upgrade : )

[AMcWhirter]

Papillion – Glad it’s all sorted out. Let us know how CX fares.

As rferguson notes above, the slim price difference between J class for LHR-SYD as against LHR-HKG would appear to explain why VS is not keen to switch J class passengers to an alternative carrier.

[Author]

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