[FlyingChinaman]

Thank you!

[Airtravel104]

To clarify the situation about the kid being obnoxious and screamed up, this dinosaur did his observing for quite a good number of hours. The child was abusive to his mother. The mother, on the other hand, was very inappropriate in her tone of voice with the child. Her voice was as loud or louder than the child’s and the two of them were carrying on as usual, from listening to their loud and cantankerous interchanges for over 3 hours — non-stop. The child and the mother stopped arguing because a stranger finally told them that it is not OK for them to air their dysfunction in public. Some of you guys may not understand that there are many people who have grown up without ever being told that disturbing other people is not OK. Some of you clever Brits should read your “Summerhill” experiment, where adults demand as much right from children as equals. Children are young. They are not morons. Someone has to tell them once that it is not all right to run over adults just because they are smaller. Parents don’t parent and teachers don’t teach. No wonder some of them became unruly. Listen again. Both mother and child stopped because some stranger told them it was not OK to disturb other people! Airlines don’t do it, cabin attendants don’t do it. Some of you guys are so cool you wouldn’t want to be a dinosaur, so you end up being chicken stewing in obnoxious noise pretending it’s cool to be in business or First? Listen to yourselves. You are venting in a section called ‘obnoxious kids in business. Why are you even tempted to wander in here if you are not concerned about it. So go suffer. In NYC some twenty years ago, teens started carrying boom boxes on their shoulders walking down the street. Without missing a beat everyone told them off, and within a year it disappeared. Perhaps none of us ever dreamt that we might want to do that ourselves. Not so with cell phones. We are so annoyed by people talking loudly on their cell phones talking about things we do not want to have to hear, but not enough of us want to kill the cell phones because it is a convenience. So we wait and hope people start getting the idea that it is not so cool to talk loudly on the cell phone. But you know, you can joke all you want about dinosaurs, but manners were taught. And it was far more pleasant when people who could afford some luxury also minded their manners. Children for one thing do not realize that their voices are higher than they think. If parents don’t tell them nicely that it might disturb people, on a regular basis, how are they going to know. Worse, ignorant parents shout back at them, not realizing that their children are not deaf. They are just naturally a little louder. I am going around in a circle because I think you guys don’t know that children are louder, and they don’t know it. If I had told the parents nicely what I just said, they’d probably be offended as you gents are! But to show them that it does work obviously was effective. She seemed relieved that the child behaved for at least 2 hours and then started talking again normally, meaning louder than needs be, but the mother no longer screamed back, which then did not provoke the child to become hysterical. OK. one last time. A child is louder than you’d wish. If the parent thinks that the child is deaf and shouts back at the same level, then it is bedlam, and the child gets hysterical. Somewhere someone needs to allow a parent to learn quickly that to reply in a loud voice provokes the child to be hysterical, since they don’t know. Money does not educate. Some of you have observed that quiet parents have quiet children. That is what’s at work. Perhaps an innovative airline might want to hand out amusing material about noise and disturbance to passengers so that no one has to confront anyone and make sure that loudness in confined spaces invades other passengers’ rights.
After all the TV viewing audiences in movie houses talk to each other as if it is their own living room, until SONY took over some of our movie houses, and these days they show a short trailer about talking in the theater disturbs the enjoyment of the film by others. People have stopped talking loudly to each other.
Similarly Carnegie Hall begins a concert by a cell phone ringing loudly. Everyone looks around in horror! “Who’s phone is ringing?!” Then the voice over the loudspeaker says, “Please turn off your cell phone so that it would not ring during the performance. Thank you.” And you know no cell phones ringing during the performance. From 2000 people that works. And the Director of Carnegie Hall is British! Airlines pussyfoot with their workers, with their passengers, ignore there are children. So what happens. You guys are happy to suffer. You condemn anyone who might do anything effective. What a bunch of willy-nillies!
Parents don’t know how to parent if they are never taught or shown how to. One time I was flying in tourist on Air India from JFK to Heathrow. The young India couple in front was traveling, probably for the first time with their baby. The baby started crying, and they didn’t know what to do. They were told by the ignorant cabin attendant to lay the baby down flat on the middle seat which the airline nicely blocked out for them. But that made the baby cry some more. So being a dinosaur, meaning a good-hearted busy body who wouldn’t take any nonsense, I told the man to hold the baby and put the side of his head one the left side of his chest so that the baby can hear his heartbeat. The baby instantly stopped crying. AFter a while the baby started crying again, so I said to the man that he could walk the baby around. And the baby was content again. He alternated this and everyone had peace. Now I realized that his wife obviously would have none of this, and went to sleep on her own, leaving the business of the baby to him. I wasn’t going to sleep with a crying baby, and the film was lousy. So at one point I asked him if he would like for me to walk the baby. He was very glad I did, and the two of us alternated and the baby was happy, he had some rest, and no one was disturbed. I have seen this once on Singapore airlines when an air hostess was willing to be me. You would think that the wife might co-operate! So as one of you said, ” it’s ultimately the parents.” But a lot of parents have grown up as single children who have not been used to give and take, and these days if you have the money to spend no one dares hold you responsible for some manners. Manners guys. That’s what it boils down to. If I were not big (not fat, just plain big.) I would actually fly tourist class. I find the comfort in business and first, but the obnoxiousness is far more pronounced from adults and children in business and first than in tourist. Anyone ever tried premium, but I think there is more leg room but the seat still doesn’t recline and my problem is shoulder width. It’s greater than the width of a tourist seat back. God punishes!

[Airtravel104]

To LindsayW:
Have you flown yet? If not yet, with these long hauls you might teach your child the trick of holding her nose and blowing air so that her ears would pop. That is most often what ails a child, blockage because of air pressure change. It’s painful and they cry because they are frightened. As for the baby, holding the baby and with its ear to your heart and walking it usually works like a miracle. And if you are already planning it, you’ll probably do just fine. It’s the parents who abdicate that usually is the problem.

[SimonRowberry]

Dinosaur,

I’ll beat VK to it: “Paragraphs, please, old chap. Paragraphs!”

Regards,

Simon

PS Oh. And two points of accuracy, if I may? Firstly, I doubt if we are all “you Brits” as you so derogatorily refer to those from the UK. You seem hung up on nationality. How relevant is it, if at all, that the Carnegie Hall Director is British, Mongolian or Sami? (The latter refers to the indigenous population of Lapland, as I am sure you know).

Second: you seem to be the one doing the venting, rather than “us” (it seems to be a habit of yours – you vented on the plane in the example you quoted, and you seem so proud of boasting of it. Now you are venting on here. Seemingly with narry a breath taken in your penultimate posting).

I think the rest of us are “observing” and “commenting,” rather than “venting.” As VK would say “Look the three words up in a dictionary and note the differences.”

PPS Judging from your second last posting, one wonders whether an anger management course might help you?

PPPS You have chosen the most appropriate soubriquet of anyone in this Forum, in my humble opinion.

[LindsayW]

dinosaur, we aren’t travelling until 23 May. We’ll give both our children something to drink and/or eat when we are taxiing out on each flight, something they are used to from our frequent flying here in Australia. I’ll keep your idea in mind.

[MartynSinclair]

Dont you just love it when ‘us Brits’ are given lessons in child care by an American.

The land where 5 year olds turn up in primary schools with loaded guns.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2011/01/28/dnt.fl.child.drops.gun.in.class.wjxt?iref=allsearch

[FlyingChinaman]

I see firework in this current tran-Atlantic spat. Just in time for the Chinese New Year next week!

Seriously nationality has nothing to do with parental behavours. It is all down to the individuals.

If Dinoseur chooses to “educate” these uninformed parents of the voice level facts, by all means do so but try presenting it in a friendly and not in a condescending way. Educating the public is a slow and frustration way but it might help to increase the awareness of respecting the other passengers in the vicinity. All good.

We should bombard the airlines’s PR department with the suggestion of creating a “Tips and Advice on Cabin Etiquettes for a Pleasant Journey” and push it through either as a recorded announcement via the PA or intergrate this with the safety instruction demo video. If the major airlines were to take such actions, there will be a lot more happier travellers!

[Scooby7]

I’ve flown on my own with my child to Australia and back at least once a year for the last 5 years. She is now 7. Never had a problem.

You can see the “uh-oh” look on some peoples faces when they see they are sitting next to a child, but I adopt the attitude of keeping awake for the entire 24 hours to ensure she doesn’t disrupt anyone else on the flight.

Its tiring, but its only 24 hours.

The one thing I can’t control is if she has a nightmare and thrashes around in her sleep, which will inevitably disturb the person sitting (or even sleeping) next to her. The only think I can really do is apologise when that occurs – the seats aren’t really made for sleeping!

So – you can’t ban all kids as the majority of them are well behaved. If other parents for the length of the flight put their childs needs absolutely first instead of settling themselves down for the inflight movie and alcohol, then I don’t think there would be as much of an issue. Sure you are always going to get one or two incidences, no matter which class you are sitting in, but I’m afraid that’s just bad luck. I’ve experienced worse incidences with adults in flight that I have with any child!

The second worst flight I have ever had, was Sydney to London, and I had three toddlers under the age of 4 sitting in the row in front of me!! They all had tantrums at one point or another with one of them loudly declaring “Stop the plane I want to get off”. I won’t share what thoughts passed through my mind at the time! But kids that age have tantrums and are not reasonable or logical, and as a parent you just have to do what you can to control them in that confined space.

Someone earlier mentioned this but realistically you can’t keep a row of seats in economy spare to move people to (unless you swap people) but then why should the people in the economy cabin suffer if all the kids there are behaving well? That just moves the problem without solving it. You can inform authorities on the ground if adults are not behaving properly, why not the parents of children too, for neglect?

I thought the point about improved inflight entertainment for kids was valid – How about kids size headphones for a start? And kids meals that are not full of sugar and additives that will send any child into a spin!

[LindsayW]

Scooby7, nicely put. Likwewise, I take the responsibility of looking after my kids seriously at all times, whether it’s a flight, train trip or at friends homes. I know my daughter will have a thousand questions and both will have times when they are tired, hungry, in pain or cry out in sleep – but as you mention, that is an everyday occurance that needs to be assessed and dealt with and should be the responsibility of parents, not FA’s.

[FlyingChinaman]

Bravo Scooby7!

You have written the most constructive piece ever since this debate was started over a year ago. Instead of have two sides arguing their point of view which gets nowhere and the debate will just goes on and on forever!

You have outlined the difficulties of handling younger children in flight but you did your best to cope with the situation and to minimize the distubance to the other passengers. A smart airline should reward responsible parents with bonus air miles for their good act! It actually cost them nothing as most children are not PPF below a certain age. Far cheaper and more effective than to have a “Kid’s zone” designated in an aircraft. It is not even feasible for an airline to create such area in any case.

It is a very tedious job for parents to keep check on their children for the duration of a long flight over 8 hours and they do get tired out at the end of their journey BUT since it is their decision for taking the children for a long trip, it is also their responsibility to take complete care of them during travel. Same as on the ground.

Airlines should begin looking into ways of tackling this problem by having more suitable kid’s food and drink and in-flight entertainment catering to these group of young passengers. Whether there is any incentives for them to improve in this area is questionable especially in the current economic climate.

One thing the airlines can do without hugh cost is immediately to include an electronic In-flight child-care advisory (similar to the DVT video or magazine) for parents when booking an infant/child fare on the web or through a travel agency.

It would be my pleasure to have the opportunity of travelling with you and your well behaved kids on my next flight to Australia!

[Airtravel104]

This is a reply to Simon:

In response to the “B”word, it was not meant as derogatory.

Secondly it was the tone of Binman62’s immediate put-down of dinosaurs, which are rather beloved in the US, that prompted the reference to the idea of, dare I say, “empire.”

Who was it that said that the difference between GB and US is language, although more and more some of us have “observed” that many young people in UK speak American English with an English or UK accent. It is clear, dare I say, to this dinosaur, the spelling of certain words, and tone of voice, that different versions of English are spoken here. English is not nearly as international as some of us like to think it is.

It is noted by this dinosaur, form the previous “posts’ that for certain writers, if an opinion is expressed by anotehr person, iif different, is deemed crass, whereas on the other side (pardon the opinion here) everyone is allowed an opinion, which one might disagree with, but not have to be put down or be insulted.

Living in NYC exposes us to assumptions brought here by new Americans from their former home countries that there cannot be opposing opinions co-existing. We Americans do not seek to educate. We don’t educate ourselves. We like to get results. The British have given the world its international language of the 20th century.

The annoying thing to a lot of people about Americans is that we like to get results. Mind you, we don’t always get results. But we think and sometimes we do get results, and we like that, and some of us brag about it.

Gee I have having a very hard time trying to be not “crass.” I think I have indeed wandered into a UK dominated site. Hmm. Time to exit. Bye! Simon. It’s all yours!!! You rule!

[FlyingChinaman]

Dinosaur: BT by default is a very UK dominated site! Which is natural as it si based in the UK and with an Asia/Pacific version.

You are not “crass” but just a little too outspoken for many on this website. There is still a lot of cultural differences between Americans and Brits of a certain age group. Younger Brits never witnessed the “Empire” are more American-friendly as they have been influenced by Hollywood and the internet contents in recent year.

It is not always necessary to be pushy to get results! Many cultures are not warm to this idea, including China.

As to your comment about the Americanization of the English spoken in the UK, I see the same thing happening in Singapore as the youth there speaks more American English nowaday whereas their parents tend to speak British style English. Again the US media influences.

You are an oddity on this site and accept it as such. Running away is self defeating!

Hope you will find too many annoying noisy kids with your future travel!

[HendrikVDB]

Hi, I’m German and was flying with my daughter age 6 months to 10 about 5 times a year to the US, mostly in business, especially the first 4 years. For me it’s just a courtesy to the other guests (and expectation when I travel alone), to take care of the kids. Sure kids are moe pushing in case of entertainment, etc. but we had for example never any problems and only positive comments (your daughter is very quite and nice), etc. I think it’s not a question of the kids, but what parents allow their kids.

[LuganoPirate]

Just came across this on Sky News website:

http://blogs.news.sky.com/familyaffairs/Post:7fe42f00-4923-4ee6-9da4-aedce5d410b2

[MartynSinclair]

excellent find Lugano, or appalling find, which ever side fo the fence you sit/stand!!

On the same theme, is it discriminatory for the rich to sit in a seperate cabin merely because they can afford to???

[Author]

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