[nmh1204]

various news outlets are reporting that the rebels are refusing access to the site, and have destroyed evidence.

I don’t see how sanctions would have any effect on Russia to be honest. We’ve implemented sanctions on other countries, and they still continued.

I honestly don’t think we’ll ever truly know what happened

[stevescoots]

The UN should have put armed boots on the ground to secure the site, with or without Russia’s approval. Its too late now and yet again shows the total pointlesness of the UN in anything other than aid or what rare species shall we save this week missions.

Putin wins yet again, he knows the game and is playing it to win

[Gin&Tonic]

Assemble an armed UN force and establish a protected boundary so recovery of passengers and the aircraft can be completed. If that means the rebels need to be engaged so be it.

[canucklad]

The Ukrainian government needs help…

An American manufactured plane with a KL flight number,, with mostly Dutch citizens ” mysteriously” crashes on Ukrainian European territory and brutish masked bandits hold sway……

Call Putin’s bluff and with the permission of the sovereign state of Ukraine NATO forces stand up to the bullies and go in protecting the experts .And at the very least recover the loved ones, to in the first instance bring some degree of respect back to the bereaved…..As a civilized person that’s the very least I’m demanding…….

I’ll add, in the footsteps of the lost, a few of us have passed …..it could have been me or indeed you ,or my colleagues daughter who chose Emirates rather than Malaysian on Wednesday lying in a field…neglected just because of a senseless geo political game. : (

EDITED to add….. Simon , If I was Dutch this morning, the most powerful sanction I hold, would kick Putin where it hurts most…. his ego….
I would immediately announce my countries withdrawal from the 2018 world cup, and my intention to lobby my friends who lost citizens to do likewise……

[Edski777]

Canucklad and others please cool down a little. No sensible government will go to war over the shooting of an airliner. The UK didn’t do it over Lockerbie and the Netherlands, the US and Nato won’t do it now either.

Revenge is not something that is part of the Western political vocabulary.

Yes, I agree that Mr Putin’s stance and ideas over this incident are horrific, but it seems to be all part of his new geo-political focus to restore the “greatness” of the Russian federation. The public support in Russia over his handling of the Ukrainian and Crimea issues is immense. No need for him to back down.

Should we go in with military force? I don’t think so. Apart from the emotion it would mean a direct confrontation with the Russians. We would be fighting and nothing would be done to recover the bodies and set up a credible investigation.
Even so, most of the evidence on rocket launchers, etc. will be removed from the scene by now. People involved will have disappeared.

However unsatisfying at this moment we really have no other option than to grind our teeth and let diplomacy have its way.
In the meantime we will have to look after those who lost 298 loved ones in this tragedy. 193 of which are my fellow countrymen.

Those responsible will have to live with this for the rest of their lives and know that someday they will be held accountable. I know that all will be looking forward to this day. It can’t come soon enough.

[MrMichael]

Many people have opinions about how this tragedy should be handled. What we cannot do is knee jerk reaction, this is not a fight in a pub to be sorted by the biggest fist. It has to be diplomacy of the highest order that ensures those that are bereaved get respected, that a proper independent (maybe the UN) investigate and find the cause and controlling minds behind this atrocity. Once that is fulfilled it is then to work out what to do about those that are guilty of this crime. Yet again that would likely be a combination of the UN and EC.

Feelings are understandably running high, but rhetoric will achieve nothing, calm and considered action will.

[canucklad]

Morning Edski777

I fully appreciate your sentiments and sadly agree on your point about the evidence, I also , alas as a liberal , who believes in social justice have to disagree…Firstly I’m not suggesting revenge, leave an eye for an eye and all that middle-ages thinking behind, or at least confine it to those countries that still insist on living 5 centuries in the past….

I’m not seeking retribution ,and right now not even justice, I’m simply requesting our governments protect us from lunatics on our own continent and repatriate the poor souls so their famlies can grieve…I’m assuming that most of the Malaysian victims would have been of the Muslim faith,so their relative’s must be particularly painted with pain due to their burial believes.

Also agree with you MrMichael…..it’s not about knee jerk reactions….however,lets ensure that those people who do us harm, don’t confuse our liberal democratic wish to live in peaceful harmony as a weakness that they can exploit !

[PeterCoultas]

Inadequate and tardy guide lines by ICAO, inadequate training of ‘rebels’ with access to missiles, bombing by Ukraine Gov of civilians in rebel held areas all contribute to an unnecessary and miserable event.

Certainly any blocking of access by ‘rebels’ would suggest they were responsible, but the origin of the equipment is so far not determined & could equally be captured Ukraine Gov or Russian supplied.

It seems that the only “winners” so far are the new Ukraine Gov regime (who bombed their own citizens) and who are now bolstered by the knee-jerk reactions of some western leaders (and Canucklad, Sky News).

This reaction is totally unhelpful to any investigation and equally to the relatives of the victims.

[SimonS1]

None of us know what discussions etc are going on behind the scenes between European governments so it’s best that we hold our breath. By all accounts the situation on the ground is chaotic and far from straightforward.

No disrespect Canucklad but if the best you can come up with is to withdraw the Dutch from a football tournament in 4 years time (that they haven’t even qualified for yet, by the way) then it indicates how tricky it is to find the right response. An excellent way of punishing the Dutch people and by the time we get to 2018 everyone will have moved on.

[MarcusUK]

Shocking as Newsnight mentioned a last eve, that Thai, Etihad, Emirates had all passed on that route within those few minutes, so it could have been any of the Airlines.

I can imagine if it were from another Airline, there would be a very different reaction!

The Dutch people are as a nation, devastated…

[rferguson]

He devastating human aspect aside….I wonder how MH will cope operationally with the loss of two of it’s long haul aircraft. It must surely leave their longhaul operation quite stretched.

[LuganoPirate]

First, this could have been avoided if Eurocontrol had closed that airspace despite the protestations of the airlines.

Next, and I’m not trivialising this, the rebels genuinely thought they were targeting a military plane. There’s no way this could have been done without someone having the technical knowledge and that likely, but not necessarily came from Russia.

Putin did not want something like this to happen. He’d just come back from a successful tour of S. America and achieved several other successes, this has taken the shine off all of that. Privately he’s embarrassed (understatement) but needs to keep up his “tough guy” image. Something that’s important to Russians (and many other nations in this respect are the same).

This was a terrible, tragic incident and Putin could have done, and still could, do so much more, but as far as I’m aware he’s not expressed one word of regret. This can’t be compared to either Lockerbie or the UTA flight over Libya, nor even Korean 007, but could more likely be compared to the shooting down of the Iranian plane by the US in the Gulf.

Despite the rhetoric Obama and Merkel are speaking to Putin twice a day. Putin is under incredible pressure and knows he must do or say something, it’s the what and how, and there’s where diplomacy comes in. I fully expect the remaining bodies to be handed over within the next 72 hours as well as the black box, though what information that will provide is questionable, since we know what bought the plane down and the box will not tell us that. Just that all was normal until the moment of impact.

I fully understand all the anger and wish for revenge that is going on at the moment, but that will not bring a single person back, and had it been a member of my own family I would not be happy until every person responsible had been put on the rack and put to death, but fortunately saner minds prevail and that’s where our diplomats and those of other countries begin to earn their salt. This seems a simple thing to resolve, but like so many things is actually quite convoluted.

As for boycotting the World Cup, well we don’t even know who will qualify yet, so that threat could be quite hollow, especially coming from England, and besides that’s probably a decision for FIFA and it’s very unlikely they would announce a cancellation though a lot of pressure could be put on them by the sponsors.

[PeterCoultas]

LP +1

[SimonS1]

LP +2. Some common sense. Thank you.

[MarcusUK]

And the sales and the moral amongst the MH crews must be exceptionally low, which they have my empathy for…they have served us all as a good Airline for many years, and i have taken that route for many years.

+One of my colleagues a Dr lost several colleagues on there a few days ago.
Let us hope now that the dignity of those that rest there, and the secured area “, can be accessed by the International team, and let them do their job. Whatever the politics, all sides should allow some dignity to remove the bodies, return them to their grieving relatives, not sitting in refrigerated trains.

Let us hope that the experts can still investigate, and conclude their work. So unfortunate it was MH and not another Middle of Far East plane that passed just before or after, and that a sharper prompt response was not made. We may have had a more volatile response otherwise.

Now let us tun our attention to the return of the bodies, the respect of those grieving, and let the investigators work their gruesome and courageous task.

[Author]

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