[BigDog.]

AnthonyDunn – 25/06/2016 02:41 BST

Gross generalisation/simplification – The key difference between the EU modus operandi and most of the governments (across Europe) is that the populace get to vote on a manifesto produced by each party trying to get elected, form government to implement said manifesto.

Similar to the Chinese or ex-Soviet politburo, in the EU, it is the elite bureaucrats, who develop/produce the agenda, all the MEPs do is say yes or no. The elite bureaucrats, as they know what is best for the population, will never propose anything which is contrary to their utopian dream of a united states of Europe so the choice in Europe is X or not X (Y or Z is not an option) whereas in democracies the choice is X or Y even Z (being inclusive of Liberals 😉 )

We could persuade/cajole them to put a brake on but there isn’t an option to change course – their analysis of the significant issues the EU faces are that they are rooted in insufficient integration not that it was a bad idea badly executed. So the juggernaut of common market then single market then single currency, monetary union, fiduciary union, political union, defence union etc will keep on trucking until the people rise up and vote to leave.

[canucklad]

Good luck in Germany WW for you and your family.
However, how convinced are you about Germany’s future.?
Germany and the Bundesbank are pretty much Europe’s sugar daddy, keeping the EU federalist agenda alive. The strain on that purse has suddenly increased.

Hopefully you and your family will flourish in a stable ,safe and libertarian country. But and its a big but, all the signs are that Germany is drifting right again as they cow tail to Brussels obsession with a super state and their reasoned believe that it’s better having Brussels as a liberal capital of Europe, than Berlin being a ultra right capital of a dominant UNIFIED Germany.

You might ask what signs, and if you are, I’d ask you scratch under the surface of the average German citizens skin.

On another note, I wonder if England’s vote reflects a population that isn’t used to proportional representation ?

EDIT to add….IMO, the Irish question will be dependent on Dublin’s next move in their relationship with Brussels. Closer integration and an imposed schenegen might make things very awkward . Particularly with the porous border. But I’m confident that our relationship will strengthen as we find a unique solution to a unique challenge.

[Alsacienne]

l would really appreciate a reply to my earlier post, even if it IS somewhat less philosophical, erudite and politically-minded …

“So what will happen to our maroon passports and the electronic chip?

Will the UK remain in or join the EEA so we can ‘fast track’ (!) through Border Control?”

WW …. thinking of you. My family’s life is currently unstable because we left the UK over 20 years ago for employment versus the dole … and have been ineligible to vote on our own future. Also noticeable that the support and kindness in the last 24 hours has been from members of our local Alsacian community (even strangers) and not even a phone call from our ‘friends and family’ in the UK.

[PeterCoultas]

Nice video showing us brits jumping into the deep-end:
http://awesomejelly.com/kipu-falls-hawaii-swimming-hole…

hoping all works out as the recent status quo was not sustainable…

[canucklad]

Not sure you’ll get the answer soon Alsacienne…..

My UK passport is due to be renewed late next year, so I’m asking myself,will I be paying near on £100 for just a years worth of documentation?

I just hope that all the political posturing ,and in the case of certain Eurocrats ,,temper tantrums ,stops and allows the dust to settle .

Only then can we move on and reach a mature and beneficial solution for all parties whilst still respecting the democratic will.

And I’ll add this,in light of the breaking news, and just in case Nicola happens to read the forum……
There is an old saying….”You wait for a bus for ages and then 3 come along!”
Well Nicola, I’m fed up riding the bus!

[SimonS1]

Alsacienne – if anyone purports to give an answer to that question they are just guessing. We won’t know for some time yet, possibly 18-24 months, as the detail will need to be worked through.

Shame you didn’t get a vote, then again if you haven’t been on the voter’s role in the UK for over 15 years those are the rules.

If I made a guess (and it is only that) then I suspect something will be worked out along the lines of a transition period (or even indefinite period) during which Brits already in EU can continue to work there and EU nationals here can continue to do likewise.

As there are a lot more EU citizens in UK than vice versa, the EU has nothing to gain by playing hardball with the UK. The only change I can foresee is that UK will no longer pay benefits to people from EU who come here without a job, they will instead need to return home to claim which in my view is a good thing.

[MrMichael]

Canucklad, you sure have a problem in Scotland. I am a passionate supporter of the democratic process, one of the reasons I was a mild eu sceptic. In Scotland last year a referendum was held to decide if Scotland wanted to be independent, and the result was no. At the time of that referendum (correct me if I am wrong here) there was also a commitment from Governmnt on an EU referendum. So maybe, the referenda were held in the wrong order. There is no doubt that Scotland voted to remain in the EU, so either the Scottish people have to put up with being lumbered with what England/Wales decided or go another way. Nicola Sturgeon is between a rock and a hard place to be honest, so has to be seen to support Scottish democracy by asking the big question again. The problem is two huge decisions back to back that are not mutually exclusive. Pains me to say it, but I think NI must also be asked the big question, as probably must the rest of Ireland if they want to merge with NI.

Huge change for the UK going on, wherever one lives and whatever ones views. I just hope when it is all sorted, likely in five years or more that everyone is comfortable with what has been done and we can all prosper under the new make up of the U.K./EU.

[canucklad]

You’re right Mr Michael, it’s all about timing….

And here’s the rub….
During our referendum it was well known that this vote was just over the horizon,and as such people had a choice to make . 55% can’t now grumble about Thursday’s result.

Or can they….
The negativity of the No campaign proclaimed that the only way to ensure EU membership was to vote NO to independence. And by the way,the same scolded Eurocrats joined in behind them, scaring us that a vote Yes was a vote out of the EU….

The lies and hyperbole that booms out from politicians, businessman and any Tom,Rick or Harry really irks reasoned people. It truly irks me, when I hear friends and family quote the peddled nonsense as fact !

[LetsFlyNow]

With the UK out of the EU probably means that i will have to pay for my Weetabix (here in Germany) as it will be a pure import and not from within the common market.

Now i’ll have to set a higher budget for Weetabix. I’m crying. The world is not fair. My problems…

I should probably stock up boxes in my basement…Sadness.

[Bath_VIP]

Both the Scottish and now Northern Ireland potential referendums are red herrings to my mind especially the argument that they are justified in light of the Brexit vote.

In the case of Northern Ireland, the common border area is dependent on the Schengen agreement not the EU. There are countries in Schengen that are not in the EU today. Even if the UK had voted Remain, the same issue would arise if Ireland decided to join Schengen. Provided Ireland doesn’t join Schengen then the common border area can continue.

In Scotland’s case, making the independence within the EU case is now more problematic since any EU they try to join will either have collapsed or will be a more centralised union with the requirement to use the Euro (see the 5 Presidents report for the plans for the Eurozone). Scotland might be in favour of the EU as is but are they in favour of a different EU?

Finally, in both cases, the nationalists’ goal has always been to leave the UK. Are you seriously telling me they would stay mute and respect the will of the British people had the UK voted Remain and not demand independence? Of course not, they would look for any justification to hold another referendum. The Brexit vote happens to be convenient but another stick can always be found to people whose lifework is dedicated to leaving the UK.

PS. Didn’t the Good Friday agreement specify that both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland had to vote in favour of re-unification? it’s not enough for Northern Ireland to vote in favour if Eire votes against.

[Intheair]

I would be very surprised if the UK leaves the EU.

The EU can’t afford to lose the UK and the UK can’t afford to lose the EU.

The reason Article 50 notification will be delayed is that it will not be invoked. The new UK government will renogitiate, the EU will give in to demands on open borders for the UK, the UK will have another referendum on the new deal and the majority will vote to remain.

My view but happy to have a wager on it. I suspect the banks already are.

[alainboy56]

BigDog 25/06/16
Thank you BigDog for twice putting our civil servant friend correct.
He seems to dislike anyone who questions the whole theory and practice of the now ‘failing’ EU.
Furthermore that if you, or I, or any other forum reader dare to insult these mandarins, we are just ‘Express reading Ignoramus’s’!
I think this just sums up the civil servant/eurocrat mantra doesn’t it, we are just people, numpties, we don’t know what we are talking about, we are bigots, and we have no right to question or discuss anything that they have decided.
In other words, just do as we tell you!
Civil Servants! – Another bunch of people whom are also un-elected and strangely crop up in the Honours List every year!
Remember that comedy show many years ago ‘Yes Minister’ — there you go, that sums it up!

[canucklad]

I’ll keep my money in my pocket Intheair ! Unless I’m handing it to the bookies.

The big question is ,will our parliamentarians vote in favour of invoking article 50 , against their own beliefs?
If a week is a long time in politics ,3 months is lifetime. And a lifetime equals a generation. And remind me, referendums come along once in a ……?

Edited…..Unless of course if you live in God’s country.

[stevescoots]

InTheAir,

I will take that bet. I suspect MP’s will block it, theere will be a lot of backroom discussions in europe, Junker is the obsticle and he will end up going under pressure of the French and Germans to do a reasonable settlement. the new Tory leader will come back with a new deal and it will either go to a commons Vote and we will stay in, or it might go to another public vote.

I will bet we end up staying in with a deal that cameron should have got first time round. I voted out but would settle with a new deal

[canucklad]

In light of Nicola Sturgeons statement and the online petition, I predict the house will pass a vote for a second question referendum……..
The question will be……

Are you in favour of the dissolution of the UK & NI if the UK parliament opts to invoke article 50 and leave the EU?

The 2 keywords that get the Brussels and Westminster establishment out of their living nightmare of their own making is IF and OPTS.
2 words that subtlety seed enough doubt and ambiguity into an already voted for decision.

[Author]

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