[BA744fan]

I get the feeling there is quite a lot of arrogance at BA with the presumption that passengers will always fly BA because they are the official British airline, regardless of how good/bad/indifferent the experience is.

If passengers jumps ship and fly AA to the US or CX to Asia, it doesn’t hurt so much because so much of the revenue is shared regardless of the carrier, and with VS being so small, there is no real competition on BA’s key routes.

If BA was a stand alone airline, maybe they would think more about the importance of brand loyalty.

[Bucksnet]

Offering old first is not bewildering if the planes it’s on are being retired soon. Apparently BA are getting one new plane every 2 weeks for the next year, so it would be a waste of money.

As Hippocampus pointed out, the new AA and CX seats are not on every aircraft, but no one is saying it’s bewildering that they still offer old business on most of their planes.

[dutchyankee]

Bucksnet, neither AA nor CX are advertising that their product is on every aircraft either, unlike the manner in which BA initially advertised their NF. There was just some very, very tiny fine print indicating NF is only on one aircraft but will be rolled out throughout the fleet. The way it was advertised, the naive traveller would have thought it was the standard. Further, AA launched their new cabins on their new aircraft, exactly what we have been saying that BA should have done but instead have lost such a great opportunity with the arrival of their A380 and 787.

[craigwatson]

AOTG –

Sorry i misphrased that. They do not split equally it is based on a percentage basis, based on the number of flights into a destination. So taking NYC for example your ticket on AA the vast majority of that revenue would go to BA as they have the most flights 12 versus 4. Although AA would get a smaller share of the other 8 flights.

There were some actual numbers out there when they were applying for anti trust immunity with the joint venture. I will try and post a link tomorrow….

[AllOverTheGaff]

Bucksnet – 13/06/2013 17:51 GMT
Offering old first is not bewildering if the planes

OK, I’ll agree on that one.

It is a shambles.

[Bucksnet]

I agree with you dutchyankee.

BA should not have advertised new first as soon as one plane had it. They should have rolled it out quicker, and dedicated it to an increasing number of routes, as I’ve mentioned many times before. They could then advertise it at the other end of the route, and people would be sure of getting it.

BA should roll out a new seat(s) on new aircraft as there’s no point putting in the old product(s), and then retrofit older aircraft, but if nothing’s ready then they can’t. A replacement plan should be in place by now, with the introduction of not just new aircraft but completely new models, but it’s not.

AOTG, I agree it’s not good. ANA introduced new seats in all 4 classes at the same time (from memory). Maybe BA should do the same, and be quick about it.

[JohnHarper]

Is there revenue sharing with CX? I didn’t think there was. Additionally there is still the outstanding issue of AA and EK which I know many don’t think will happen, I do. That will cause a huge shift on the north Atlantic and if AA have a market leading product and BA have their current one I don’t doubt where the money will go.

Please remember that a year ago many could not foresee the QF/EK arrangement and that is now excluding BA from revenue sharing on the kangaroo route leaving questions over the long term viability of the route for BA.

[AllOverTheGaff]

dutchyankee – 13/06/2013 17:56 GMT
There was just some very, very tiny fine print indicating NF is only on one aircraft but will be rolled out throughout the fleet. The way it was advertised, the naive traveller would have thought it was the standard.

If BA had taken a more pragmatic stance and discounted their “old first” cabins instead of the endless sales and upgrade offers, I think they might have *just about* gotten away with Old First. By discount I mean somewhere slightly above business class pricing, then those who have paid the fare to travel have less to complain about.

The issue, as you rightly indicate is that if you are not fully savvy with BA operations you play a game of BA roulette as to which cabin you are getting.

This steaming-pile about “well planes are about to be retired anyway” doesn’t wash either – they announced New First when? 2008? 5 years have lapsed and the cabins have deteriorated to the point that even the crew are embarrassed by them and actually apologise for them when you board the plane.

All of this brings me back to the original point of the topic – what will BA do about their old-fashioned seating now that they have taken delivery of 2 shiny new planes with the old-style cabin configs?

Rgds.
AOTG.

[MartynSinclair]

Why not widen the discussion to include the other office UK carrier Virgin. Whilst the economics / models are different, they are both similar as apart from a light touch up to Upper, Virgin have not really changed their seats for a long long time either.

[Cloud-9]

BA are generally slower than many airlines – esp those in far and middle east – to update their product. At this rate, even LH will have a superior product fleetwide!
The QR business/first seat is something they could aspire to.

[PhileasFogg]

I just arrived fom a SAO-LHR-DXB return in new First class with BA.

1. Crew was excellent in all flights.
2. Excellent wines and Champagne
3. Very poor food quality (simply no comparison with CX, EK or even QR business).
4. Pleasant cabin environment despite lack of wow factor.
5. IFE choices very limited. LCD screen of decent size but with very poor quality (I´m talking 1980 type of image quality)
6. IFE sound broken in 1 sector; personal lamp broken in another
7. Concorde lounge very busy. No available cabanas. LHR Lounge lacks a quiet area to rest with decent sleeping chairs
8. 1 hour wait for a shower in lounge (no separate showers for First class in LHR). Shower room was smelly and didn´t look very inviting.
9. On the return flight I dediced to avoid lounge and pay day rate in Sofitel T5 for a decent shower and rest
10. No limousine service
11. Personal escort service through immigration but only in DXB
12. Pijamas, slippers, amenity bag, bed and duvet all tick the boxes but no distinct vs other first class offerings
13. Bathrooms in 747 are very cramped with a/c extremely cold (maybe to make sure passengers don´t stay for long insinde)

I only chose BA to keep my gold status but after this experience have decided to spend all my Avios next year and abandon the airline.

On my modest view, either BA raises game in premium classes or will lose a lot of customers.

[pdtraveller]

The fact is BA will not raise its game whilst LHR remains constrained as they have absolutely no need to do so. Between fortress LHR and the AA and IB cartels, what is the business reason for changing?

They have an enviable (some might argue – unmatched FFP in the UK) adequate products and pretty solid corporate passenger base in the most affluent geographical area of Europe. What is the business case for change? Why invest in products that are already full – be it clapped out First or crampon Club World! They have slots a plenty to play with and can grow their business once new aircraft arrive, albeit with tired and aging hard products.

Whenever they have space they simply launch a further sale attracting transfer from the EU with Avios giveaways the like of which UK passengers can only dream.

The lack of incentive is what I find depressing and for the foreseeable future it is difficult to see what the driver for change could be.
Of course I wish it were not so.

[pomerol]

pdtraveller

Why do people keep pointing out that BA enjoys an enviable position at LHR, really it astounds me, welcome to the world, any airline at their home base will enjoy playing at home, that is no different to anywhere else in the world, indeed the USA enjoy an advantage over the UK, not least with the Chapter 11 shield they can hide behind.

But, what I think concerns me more than anything, is the anti everything BA Brigade, I would not dream of flying to the far east on a middle east carrier, having to change aircraft at 2:30am in the morning or some similar time

What also causes me concern, is that the BA Bashers, the usual suspects who accuse VK of everything from being WW’s right hand man, to being everything BA, are without any doubt whatsoever, everything ANTI BA, they are so vitriolic, rude and objectionable in their post’s, i am surprised the Forum is still operating, it’s all well and reasonable to have a view on a subject, but it is not unreasonable to expect that, that view is put forward in a reasonble manner, but unfortunately from the usual suspects, that is to much to expect.

I think it fair to point out that AOTG has posted some threads that have been reasonably informative, but I also think he has posted some very contentious post’s, which were very agressive and personal, which should have no place on this forum.

I do wonder, as I am sure many others must do so as well, as to why BT tollerate such rudeness and vitriol, I sincerly hope it is not for the headline.

VK has been the target of the Anti BA brigade, accused of posting under other handles, I have not seen any post’s which I have suspected that, but over the past 5 or 6 years I have been looking at this site I have seen many posters, whom I think are posting under different handles, all akin to the usual suspects.

Pomerol

[IanFromHKG]

Bucksnet – 13/06/2013 17:51 GMT : Offering old first is not bewildering if the planes it’s on are being retired soon … As Hippocampus pointed out, the new AA and CX seats are not on every aircraft, but no one is saying it’s bewildering that they still offer old business on most of their planes

Dealing with your last point first – looking at their long-haul fleet, CX have 15 B747s and 11 A340s with old business class; and they have 32 B773s and 24 A330s with new business class. So I am afraid it is not true to say they still offer old business on “most of their planes” – they have 56 new as against 26 old, and the retrofit is complete (the B747s and A340s won’t be retrofitted since they are going to be retired).

To your first point – yes it is bewildering if you can’t work out whether your flight has it or not. Look at BA’s website as well and try to work out what you will get if you don’t have New First – I couldn’t see any description of old First anywhere. I have an upcoming flight in First next month, and I had to ask the experts on this forum in order to work out whether it would have NF (apparently it will).

Contrast with CX: It is easy to tell which version you will get – just look at the aircraft type. I would also add (tying back in to your first point) that CX also still include full details of old business on their website so, again, you know exactly what to expect:
http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/whatonboard/businessclass

Sorry to disagree with you, but – well, I just do, that’s all!

MartynSinclair – 13/06/2013 17:32 GMT : I am happy enough when seated upstairs on the 747, but will certainly not be using cw to Asia after October when the 777 comes in.

Why is that, Martyn?

[Guest_Poster]

MartynSinclair – 13/06/2013 18:25 GMT

Virgin are not in the same league as BA, when you look at the two airlines. Virgin is much smaller and does not have a dominant position, compared to BA, a non-entiy, if we are being honest. Perhaps that is why the comments are limited on here.

Still, your point is valid, their seats have not been significantly changed for some time.

Personally, I prefer Virgin seats to Club World, as they offer high levels of privacy and good comfort, with direct access to the aisle. The price paid for this is lack of outside views and having to ‘flip’ the seat into a bed, a mechanism which some find limits the range of recline when sitting.

[Author]

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