[VintageKrug]

But why let facts get in the way of a good insinuation?

On 20th March 2010, a strike day, according to the Sunday Times and also Sky News, 1157 of 1700 rostered LHR cabin crew reported for work. That’s 68% at LHR.

At LGW it was 97%.

Hardly the “massive” support alleged.

[FlyingChinaman]

JudgedRed: I am in total agreement with you on excessive power of the Trade Unions and unfit for modern business models worldwide.

Although I do not live in the UK, I do use BA flights out of London to a few Europe cities each month I am in Europe and I am rather tired of making advance bookings on BA and can never be certain that I can rely on their services. I sure I am not alone and there must be thousands of international travellers who might be caught in such situation a lot of the time.

I don’t know much about the UK labour laws but is it not possible for BA to give these militant FA an early retirement and pay whatever is required by the laws just to get rid of them? If you pay up all the legally obligation when firing staff members, then it can not be classified as UNFAIR DISMISAL, can it?

If a UK company can not do that, then God save Britain!!!!!

[VintageKrug]

It is perfectly possible for an employer to sack anyone who withdraws their labour – even if that was done under the terms of a legally “protected” strike period.

If they are dismissed during the protected period, an industrial tribunal may find wrongful dismissal. That would entitle the individual fired to financial compensation, but not re-instatement.

In the case of withdrawing labour outside the protected period, there is no recourse to financial compensation, as it is a breach of contract, pure and simple.

Neither of the these facts have been communicated to the BASSA membership.

There is of course a little more than purely the law operating here; if could be perceived as a draconian act to fire crew, and that could lead to political issues, and also could be the spark which provokes wider (and thankfully now illegal) secondary action – against the background of a centre-right coalition government, there are plenty in the Socialist movement who would have this as the flashpoint for wider social unrest. So it’s important to look beyond the pure “legalities” of the case.

My sympathies are really with those cabin crew “stuck in the middle” of all this who have gained “nothing” from the strikes (and this is supported by Tony Woodley’s assertion in linked the audio file above), many have lost out considerably, and while others are being made redundant in the wider economy, BA is offering its cabin crew a pay RISE in the latest deal, and this offer was not even put to the cabin crew for a vote – BASSA leadership moved directly for a strike ballot.

Nuts.

[NTarrant]

FlyingChinaman – trade unions don’t have the power they used to have, thank goodness, I remember the 1970’s and 80’s when they held the country to ransom. At least now they have to have a ballot and give notice. As you will have read there are no plans for action and that depends on a ballot. No more strikes at the drop of a hat unlike some countries

[FlyingChinaman]

VK: Thanks for giving me more background information to this endless industrial dispute. I now have a better understanding of the situation.

I must say I had trouble in visulizing the BA cabin crew on their European flights as being a nasty bunch. Most of them looked rather decent. However many of the senior and aging FA in the front cabins (trans-continental flights) have rather different attitudes and this may be the trouble! Dragging the sandwich class of honest crew members into a LOOSE-LOOSE situation for both sides.

NTarrant: Having grown up a former British Crown Colony, we were keenly aware of the powerful labour unions back in the 70’s and 80’s! My father once told me that the two major bus companies in HK had to look for an alternative European bus manufacturer to supply over a thousand double decker buses per year rather than to allow the lengthy British Leyland strike to strangle the rapid public tranport system development during the Asian economic boom at that time. That was a hugh amount of order for per year spreading over a 10 to 15 year period. Big big loss to the British industry!

The UK now needs to have a quick economic recovery to put their finances right and this on-going BA cabin crew industrial saga is not helping!

I have just booked two return flights on BA for January but had doubt with their services beyond January and I was thinking of using other European airlines instead. Short strikes at a drop of a hat is not the same thing as a looming threat for months and months.

Since you said the chances of a planned strike is not so likely between February to April, I might reconsider flying with BA for these periods. I will not hold you responsible!

Happy holidays to all and also to the BT editoral staff members.

[NTarrant]

Just as an aside Flying Chinaman in the 70’s and early 80’s HK bus companies were purchasing time expired buses from the UK. The new buses in the 80’s and 90’s came from British manufacturer Leyland who sold out to Volvo, although the bodywork was still by British companies.

I think that they were supplied in “kit” form and assembled in HK. Some of the vehicles were shipped back to the UK when time expired in HK for further use. Stagecoach brought back some single deck buses with airconditioning as a novelty.

[FlyingChinaman]

NTarrant: Thank you for further enriching my knowledge of HK history. I was too small to know all the insider’s facts BUT that high profile strike did leave a very negative image of the once powerful UK unions to the mind of the HK people.

I really love this forum – with the wealth of information provided by all the web contributors, who would need an Encyclopedia Britannica, when you have so many walking ones around!!! (pun intended!)

Have a good week-end!

[CallMeIshmael]

The dispute has never been about pay – it is another of the smoke and mirrors endemic within BA Krug to influence the press. Cabin Crew offerred to take a pay cut – similar to the pilots but this was rejected. The strike is about BA’s leadership (??) who being totally devoid of emotional intelligence, bully, victimise and intimidate its front line crew.
Unite are perfectly happy to let the myriad of cases against BA take their course through the courts now.
BA has shown itself to be the ultimate abuser of its dominant position. Since Laker, BA has a reputation of engaging in illegal practices hoping to drive the opposition to the wall before the courts can adjudicate on the legitimacy of its actions. It frequently ends up paying hundreds and tens of millions in compensation but by then the opponents are unable to recover. To date, the cost of the recent CC IA is miniscule when compared to the cost/fines BA has incurred resulting from its illegal actions and leadership incompetence – Laker; Dirty Tricks (Virgin); international price fixing; cargo cartel, T5 national embarrassment etc. I just hope the CC survive to receive their compensation as well as retaining their jobs.

[craigwatson]

CallMeIshmael – “Cabin Crew offerred to take a pay cut – similar to the pilots but this was rejected”, you seem to have neglected to mention that the pay cut that cabin crew offered was condintional on it only being for 2 years. Nobody would accept that.

[CallMeIshmael]

Craig – as I wrote, CC offerred a cut similar to pilots, the pilots was conditional also !!! Pilots will get their pay level reinstated in 2011.

[VintageKrug]

The pay cut offered by the BASSA for its cabin crew members was offered only as a loan, was for two years, and was fully repayable (not just to be re-instated at previous levels) after that time.

It did nothing to address the structural cost issues BA faces.

BASSA refused to examine BA’s accounts, offered “savings” of £170m which were independently audited by PwC and found to total less than £52m. Over THREE TIMES less than claimed.

BASSA then refused to negotiate on a settlement for over a year, and was then frozen out of even internal Union negotiations by its parent Union, Unite.

Cabin crew were offered a pay rise in BA’s latest offer.

Unite are most certainly not happy to keep paying for the astronomical cost of a range of legal challenges the dysfunctional BASSA has launched against BA, and especially so since BASSA does not have a good track record of winning such cases.

Unite has already required a levy on its other members to pay for these costs being incurred by BASSA.

Unite (which is already on shaky financial ground itself) risks being sued for the entire cost of any futher strike action, a cost which would fall hard on the hard-pressed pockets of its membership.

Please don’t cloud the issue without full context, and by misrepresenting facts.

[CallMeIshmael]

Sky and Sunday times report figures supplied by BA. Was BA’s endemic smoke and mirrors in play again with figures beefed up with volunteer crew? It is difficult to rationalise BA’s claims against the facts on the ground as independent reporters witnessed T5 being a ghost town and pilots taking off and landing a series of empty planes in order to maintain the illusion that flight were not cancelled.

But hey Krug don’t feel bad, Walsh managed to delude thousands of his own staff into invoking a crisis by stating “BA is in a fight for survival” in ’09 and appealed to staff to work without pay, only to reward himself with an 11% pay increase plus bonus of £1.65m.

Problem is I doubt if they will be suckered twice.

Continue to believe BA is a moral, ethical company who would not stoop to bullying, victimising and intimidation. Krug – as you seem to be wise on all things BA, is there another airline who has incurred more fines as BA has for corrupt practices?

[VintageKrug]

BA is compelled by Stock Market regulations to give accurate figures to the market and the press. It is a legal requirement.

I have never seen any exact, auditable and publicly available figures put out by BASSA. BASSA has even removed from its website the total number of BASSA members (because it was falling so fast and was becoming embarrassing…)

Those would be the same empty planes BASSA claimed were parked up at Shannon would they? None were there. Fact.

As ever, a typical BASSA tactic to fail to address the points made, and switch the argument onto irrelevant territory.

[CallMeIshmael]

Krug – let me say this again – it was not, is not, and has never has been about pay, though it hasn’t stopped you/BA continuing to peddle the pay agenda to garner support. The strike is about bullying, victimisation and intimidation resulting from BA’s 1960’s autocratic leadership style – and we all know what happened to Weinstock and where GEC ended up!

Isn’t it interesting that BA refuses to go to independent binding arbitration with respect to suspensions and firings? Isn’t it interesting BA insisted on all legal cases against them being dropped in their recent offer?

Most of the legal cases in process are being bought by individual cabin crew or class action groups as opposed to Unite.
Interestingly although BA has won a couple more cases against Unite than it has lost BA has not been awarded costs. They were very close or split decisions, maybe influenced by Walsh’s assertion that “BA is in a fight for survival” at the time. I hope they won’t be suckered twice.

I feel sorry for the majority of staff at Waterside who believe, if they are not seen to actively support the leadership ??? , that they will be victimised themselves and their careers put at risk. And also because of the toxic legacy which Walsh will leave behind regardless of outcome.
Hey Krug you continue believing and regurgitating everything BA peddles, am glad most courts don’t. Keep flowing in the big Egyptian river.

[VintageKrug]

Would that be 8 out of 10 courts?

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