[BigDog.]

Standard corporate behaviour LP when being exposed. Dismiss a perceived ring leader in order to
a) frighten off others considering similar action
b) stifle support
c) divert press attention, aids in countering the bad publicity.

Yes there could well be a counter claim however now lawyers are well involved I don’t expect detailed outcomes (compromise agreements?) let alone progress reports to be played out in the public domain – which will suit Ryanair.

[londonlad]

BigDog. – 15/08/2013 16:04 GMT

“One hopes BA pilots get a form of performance management which would include 360 degree feedback and would engender a better team spirit. Disconnects due to poor/arrogant leadership can exacerbate situations as apparently happened with the BM Kegworth Air disaster.

BA should also consider similar zero hour contracts to reduce costs as airline pilots are fairly standard nowadays working behind the scene and are not the face of BA interacting with BA customers.

On the other side the bullying leadership style of vertically challenged Irish CEOs within the Airline industry is neither a role model or conducive to safety or service.”

Straight out the BASSA playbook… amazing.

[craigwatson]

Lugano, no counter claim possible, as all Ryan Air pilots are self employed contractors, so as he does not technically work for Ryan Air, but normally for Brookfield Aviation ( they are the shell company that offer the contracts ) FR can toss anyone loose whenever they feel like it. Also saves tem a whack in tax, pensions, NI…..

[NameRemoved-18/12/14]

BigDog

I find your remark @16:04 offensive – ‘vertically challenged Irish CEOs’.

Would you say the same thing if they were all English?

[BigDog.]

It was not intended to be offensive. It was a choice you made alexpo1 to take offense. You could have chosen not to take offense.

When VK/SM posted a picture of an airliner propped up without an undercarriage allegedly at Liverpool Airport why didn’t you choose to take offense (on behalf of Liverpudlians) at that as it could well by viewed as stereotyping Liverpudlians?

Likewise in a previous post you wrote “Rice kwispies” … now if I had a lisp (or not) I could be offended by your post, as it attempts to widicule those orally challenged.. or not.

[Bucksnet]

Some people take offence at anything, and probably never consider if it’s true or not.

[Xuluman]

Craig, not all RYR pilots are contractors. All the old timers, and management pilots are on a permanent deal employed by RYR including I presume John Goss.

Try not to get trolled. Anyone that labels themselves ‘BD’ clearly isn’t…

[LuganoPirate]

Thanks BigDog, Craig. From the Mail who is now publicising this, it seems he has a lawyer and the backing of his union.

Craig, you mention this contract saves FR a whack in tax, NI etc. I’ve always wondered about the advantages of this, as surely the contractor has to add these elements into his fee and a profit on top? Or is it just a way for a company to get rid of people easily and that’s where the savings are eventually achieved?

[craigwatson]

Xulu – I stand corrected, it looks like about 75% of pilots are self employeed contractors and 25% are actually RyanAir employees.

Lugano, “as surely the contractor has to add these elements into his fee and a profit on top?”, but in this case the “contractor” does not get to propose a fee for his services.

Much less admin for Ryanair and no pension liabilities, as they just pay the pilot and it is up to him to do his own NI, tax….

[MartynSinclair]

I would guess the contracts are Irish not UK. HMRC would take issue with any employer where contractors work solely for one company.

From a physiological point of view, I am sure being a contractor does not make the pilots feel part of a team….

[craigwatson]

Actually it gets worse, from what I have read Ryanair “encourage” the pilots to register their company offshore.

And as Ryanair pilots are based all over europe including the UK, HMRC is looking into whether this practice is illegal or not, in Italy the tax office there is already taking Ryainair pilots to court over fines it has issued to them for not reporting income ( although by the looks of it, they were not liable for italian tax, but had to report taxable income paid to another counrty while based in Italy, which they did not, and the penalty is a huge fine. ) Meanwhile Ryanair can just shake their head and walk away as it is the responsibility of the pilots to manage their own tax affairs.

[MartynSinclair]

Strictly speaking then, Ryan Air can not make claim to “employing” their own pilots, rather using contractors to fly their aircraft.

I wonder then who has more authority, the contractor flying or the cabin crew employed….. I wonder if the pilots actually care……

Either way, you still wouldn’t get me on FR, even if the seats were free (oh…. they are!).

[AnthonyDunn]

@ MartynSinclair – 17/08/2013 13:05 GMT

Martyn, you need to remember with Flyanscare that what started out, nominally, as “free” soon becomes anything but once you’ve had to pay for all the basics, err, I mean “add-ons”…

[craigwatson]

Sorry Martyn, but cabin crew are on the same self employed contractor contracts as well.

[BigDog.]

Fair point Martyn however outsourcing whether to save money (economies of scale; tax reduction/avoidance etc), none core/ specialist knowledge or to limit exposure/circumvent regulations – is the norm for many large UK companies.

Specifically wrt airlines: baggage handling; check-in; catering; ground handling; IT;security etc are frequently outsourced, especially away from home base, O’Leary has merely taken it a step further. For some bullying employers, employee loyalty appears no longer a valued asset, seeing them as more of an expendable commodity and functional cost to be reduced.

Why shouldn’t specialist jobs especially, in none customer facing roles, be outsourced to specialist companies? As this thread demonstrates, the vast majority of passengers are blissfully(?) unaware of the reality. Like it or not, European legacy airlines are having to compete with the LOCO carriers and their minimal cost base. I cannot see why basic market forces would not result in more flight crew being similarly outsourced/contract based.

Imo and experience authority is not compromised by contractual status.

[Author]

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