[canucklad]

Agree with you CathayLoyalist,
Being a pro EU politician is one thing, but continuing on the hyperbolic arguments as if the referendum vote was still to take place belittles my intelligence and more dangerously creates continuous economic uncertainty. And it totally makes them petty small individuals, like a wailing child seeking their comfort blanket.

Fortunately for me, my opinion of politicians isn’t particularly high. Even so, they recent behaviour just leaves you embarrassed and ashamed that they represent us..

And as I’ve said before, this shouldn’t be a party partisan issue. Yet that’s exactly what it’s becoming….. And they expect us to respect them!

[transtraxman]

I disagree about the need for a second referendum. I think it is daily becoming clearer that one is essential.

Apart from the reasons I have already mentioned it is also becoming clearer what the conditions of association will be. Basically what has been said is that if Britain wants a free trade agreement with the EU then we have to accept free movement of people. That means the same situation as at present. If the referendum was principally fought on the issue of immigration, yet the association will remain the same without the benefits of sitting at the table, then who has been leading whom up the garden path?

Or is the alternative to turn our backs on Europe to become the 51st state of the USA? – no way – no thanks.

[transtraxman]

Five models for post-Brexit UK trade

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36639261

None of these convinces me.

[WillieWelsh]

Let’s face it both sides of the referendum based their campaigns on lies and more lies.

Only now are people beginning to realise the truth of the matter. A further referendum is therefore essential.

[SimonS1]

@transtraxman – the difficulty here is that terms like “free movement of people” are essentially meaningless unless properly defined.

If it means free travel across borders with a passport then no issues.

If it means the ability to live and work in another country then no real problems, as it adds value to the economy.

However if it means people coming here with no job but expecting benefits and a jump to the top of the housing list at UK taxpayers expense then there will be strong resistance.

@WillieWelsh – don’t politicians dissemble at every election? If you re-ran the vote every time it happened we could have permanent polling stations set up.

[WillieWelsh]

SimonS1 – 02/07/2016 22:59 BST

I can’t remember an election that had the same impacts as this referendum hence the need to re-run it.

[Bath_VIP]

WillieWelsh,

Would you be saying the same thing if Remain had won 52-48? Or if the Scots had voted Yes 52-48 in 2014?

[SimonS1]

@WillieWelsh – all elections have impacts.

Where would you draw the line in terms of what type of vote should be re-run if you don’t like the outcome? And if the result was the same would you just keep re-running it until you eventually get the result you want? And would you then let the losing side re-run it again?

[WillieWelsh]

I was quite happy with the outcome of the Scottish referendum, the issues were well understood by all and it was obvious the SNP had no real viable alternative at that time to the union continuing. The same cannot be said for the EU referendum, the issues were not understood and clearly the out campaign had no real plan for the future other than pumping £350M a week into the NHS. Within minutes of the vote being declared South Wales which votes out was screaming that its EU grants would need to continue….

In any event, I’m past caring, we start looking at property in Germany tomorrow and with luck we’ll be there by the end of the summer securing our future out of the UK. Other rats will no doubt join me in deserting the sinking ship.

[SimonS1]

Well there were 44% of people in the Scottish referendum who would no doubt claim the winning side didn’t understand the issues. And the clamour for a second referendum there started straight away too.

I suppose because you agreed with the result that makes it ok though.

Good luck in Germany, by the end of the summer you will have plenty of new neighbours on the migrant run and you can help bail out Italy who are asking for money again.

[canucklad]

Not sure how you voted in the indie referendum WillieWelsh, and I agree with you that the arguments on both sides were debated in a far more mature manner than the school yard antics of the EU referendum.

But I wasn’t happy with the result, wasn’t happy with the tactics the No campaign adopted when polling suggested a Yes win . Summed up by ,and it still defies believe that he remains an MP, the dishonest and desperate actions of Alistair Carmichael .

Yet, I accepted the result because if not enough of my fellow voters can’t disambiguate exaggeration from reasoned logic, then alas it means the campaign that had my vote simply failed to convince people to their point of view.

And the same applies here.

But I wonder , if we had narrowly voted yes, would the establishment and the political elite manipulated a situation to a create a 2nd chance for the people of Scotland to get the vote right.

[transtraxman]

I think that the point to keep in mind is that any change in the status quo is a MAJOR constitutional change and thus should be handled with kid gloves. The same goes for any future Scottish or other referenda which would have an impact on the constituonal status of the UK. In my view such care was not taken with the recent referendum which was shown to be an ill tempered, partisan propagandistic affair which left many people voting for the wrong reasons (anti giovernment, anti-Tory, and anti-Cameron).

In this particular referendum, the margin of difference was too small (4%). Two UK nations voted one way while two the other. The whole series of figures used have admitted to being plain manipulations, half truths and downright lies. This is shocking, shameful and even scandalous behaviour by the politicians and media barons, while unworthy for the British populace who “supposedly” have an exemplary democracy. It has been shown to be a dirty double dealing clique who are only out for their own ends.

I think, therefore, a second referendum is more than justified. I think such should be repeated with changes. What justification is there for Commonwealth citizens to vote while EU members cannot? Why are British expatriots excluded from voting who are directly affected by the result (1.5 million in the EU) even more so than many UK residents?

If in the end the result were the same then the matter could be put to rest, then to sort out a deal with the EU. If the result were changed then a larger margin (10%) would be needed to put the matter to rest.

The referendum after all is only a consultation which can be ignored by the MPs. However, that would be asking too much of them since they would be risking so much of their ambition, and British MPs are rarely known for voting on principle but more for party and self interests´ sake.

Has anyone got enough ……….. to take a stance?

[DavidSmith2]

I pinned my colours to the mast very early on in terms of whether there were grounds for apparently ‘ignoring’ the result of the referendum – I made it very clear that this was an issue of such overwhelming potential (and actual) importance, that the future of the UK and of Europe should not be decided simply on a single plebiscite.

I did not think there should have been a referendum in the first place but, if we were to have one, it should have been clear that it was of an advisory nature only. The risk with that of course would have been that even more people would have used it as an opportunity to protest, than actually vote on the substantive issue.

But we are where we are and we have to try to find a way forward. This must take note of the range of concerns expressed by the 52%, it must respect democracy (bearing in mind that democracy is far more than counting heads) and it must ensure that future decisions are based upon a much more honest and accurate debate (by all parties).

I do not think that a second in/out referendum is a good idea at all but a referendum which provides for more clarity on the diversity of concerns and opinions of the entire population would be entirely appropriate, once our brexit negotiating position is known. It can be a more complex, multi-question referendum but it should be clear that the final decision is for Parliament to assess the results and decide what is best.

[MartynSinclair]

For me the bigger issue is there needs to be legal accountability for all words and promises that come out of the mouths of politicians and those written in manifesto’s..

It was an impossible vote, made worse by the lack of clarity and strategy…

What is now also very worrying is how the timetable to resolve or find the solution (especially as clause 50 appears to be in a very long holding pattern) to the EU position, will detract the Government from working on “other business”…

[Alsacienne]

“”What justification is there for Commonwealth citizens to vote while EU members cannot? Why are British expatriots excluded from voting who are directly affected by the result (1.5 million in the EU) “”

As one of those excluded from voting … UK citizen living in the EU, having been away from the UK for 15+ years … I am personally unhappy with the result, frustrated by being disenfranchised but I have to accept – and respect – a democratic procedure and the result produced.

[Author]

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