[Edski777]

Dutchbird,

I don’t believe we differ that much. Yes, there are better options out there, especially to the East. European airlines have a problem that compared to most airlines in the Asian Pacific region have a cost base that is way higher. And there is the difference in service attitude.

I believe in all fairness we have to compare apples with apples.

As most North American airlines are no longer a match for European carriers, the Asian and Middle East ones offer better services than the Europeans. Based on the on board experience I have shifted a substantial part of my business to Asian and ME carriers for just that reason. But I try to keep an open mind. I look for good offers and improving service levels.
I have experienced that with some carriers it’s a lot of talk and very little substance. Others really try to improve and win business back.

KLM has improved over the years in terms of service on board and the standard of food in long haul Business class. Although I admit that the latter is somewhat subjective as it is a matter of taste.
And finally they start upgrading their seats. For me that is enough to give them a try again as the new product becomes available and reviews are positive.

From the UK KLM offers for me a very decent service via AMS at a reasonable price. Not low cost, but most of the time better priced than BA, LH and AF. And I prefer AMS as an airport. CX and SQ are normally quite a bit more expensive. Middle East carriers to Asia are normally more price competitive, but require a stop in the Middle East and longer travelling times.

CX, SQ, EK, EY all offer a better on board product than European airlines I have flown with in recent years.

The only thing we really see differently is that “KLM is so self focussed and unionized”. I have never experienced this as a customer. I find KLM staff to be friendly, courteous, professional and happy at their job. KLM is usually very well organized if something unexpected happens, especially at their home base AMS.
I don’t actually know what you mean with “unionized”. If you mean that flights have been cancelled due to labour actions: I have no recollection of this in recent years. Otherwise, please explain your remark.

[MarcusUK]

I also concur with many of the comments on here.
I know two Crew Managers for KLM, and have also flown with them for over 18 years.

Air France bought out KLM, and their Flying Dutchman program, around 2006. The KLM teams at every level, in every section of The Airline, meet regularly to improve the service, ideas to work with reasonable costs, and often refer to the Company as being run like a family. If you walk around the upper floors of the KLM offices at Schiphol, you often see whole groups of teams meeting together.
I know how much every individual strives to help keep the brand going.

Complete innovations have been made in the on board food services in recent years, the meals coming out in flight, no different as from the kitchen of a restaurant. A superb standard, wherever you sit.
The funding from Air France, secured the KLM brand, or they would have gone…simple. However, the fleet has also been renewed almost completely now, in Europe, and now just a few long haul aircraft to be replaced.

I think they will make an excellent job of a new cabin, and seat, much better than virgin did in their Upper Class revamp, that made little difference. I hope they keep the infamous KLM Blue colour, and Dutch themes.
They are a well run, Dutch brand, and one of the best to fly within Europe on Board new planes, and fabulously motivated, genuinely engaged crews.

When anyone next goes through Schiphol, we all realise it is one of the favoured hubs of the world, and the best in Europe. But the team of KLM staff, make things happen there, they keep it smooth and a pleasure to travel through inside the building, and much behind the scenes…Schiphol is KLM.!
If anything goes wrong with your connections, KLM have it sorted before you have to ask. Any complaints, are followed up with rapid responses, phone calls, and passed on for action with department heads. Customer service, is superb.

I have had atrocious experiences on Air France in the last 18 months, long haul business, in Europe Economy. Staff are lazy, and my last flight spent an hour all taking at the front of the plane, not serving drinks or doing anything. The flight was 1.5 hrs, and we got a coffee in the last 30 minutes drinking it as we were descending.
We got the impression, of them being unionised, not bothered, arrogant, rude and they gave me a very poor impression, also as a KLM / AF shareholder.

These attitudes, and the losses made on many AF routes, and the rigidity to change and work as the KLM crews do, let down and drag the whole group down. BA, LH, Alitalia, Iberia…that’s Unionised, strikes where flights get cancelled for days, run without food, staff impair the Airlines function. Their staff themselves so much damage.

As a Company Director also, and having managed thousands of staff, KLM stands out as a well run, democratic, team based Airline.
They continue to innovate in every way, from bio-fuels, energy saving ground control, flight co-ordinators managing entire flight processes etc. They also provide the UK, with more connections from our regional airports than any other Airline in Europe. BA have abandoned the regions and left many UK travellers without choice.

It is a great pity we cannot divide the brands or see KLM as it stands alone now, as it is in profit, efficient, and a superb Airline.
The links with Etihad will add much from Amsterdam in the coming months also, one of the other superb Airlines in the world choosing to link in with KLM / AF with a commitment of 10 years. They are an essential link for Australasia, and working with, not taking business as EK are with other Airlines.
I think, and my experience is that KLM is a unique Airline in Europe, with an excellent reputation in many parts of the world.

As with their massive fleet investment, probably the Airline to replace more aircraft than any other in the last few years, I am sure they will step forwards with something impressively identifiable as Dutch KLM. Many contribute to change from within, and finances are tight.
This is part of their 2015 plan, and will carve out their future in the industry, some aspects which i do not go along with.

But the brand remains, and I am always proud to fly with them, assured by the sight of the KLM Blue at Schipol, of the staff and the Aircraft. It sets a standard of Airlines in the EU, that no other reaches.
Hard times they are, the glory of travel has gone, but KLM retain more effort and outcome and serve the regions of the UK better than BA or VS ever will bother too.

It will be great to see their new concepts, another piece of the jigsaw to be put in place, that has slowly transformed this uniquely Dutch Brand.

[Vertrek]

Nice one Marcus,

I share the view with you. Somehow, it is just different when you flew KLM, perhaps it’s the ambiance and the energy which are reflected by the happy and energetic crew, who are grateful and passionate about their job.

Most of my friend who are non-European commented that the crew of KLM are very genuine when it come to serving non-white passenger. As one of them said “most service offered by other EU carrier seems to have this invisible glass, not being racist, but they seems to be a bit uncomfortable when it comes to serving non-white passengers but it non-existence in KLM”. Perhaps it’s the liberal and easy going Dutch mindset. Gotta give that one to their HRD and of course the FAs and service providers.

Overall, since the first time I flew KLM, it’s hard to fly other airlines, they are just amazing! And I am really looking forward to their new “J” offering and many more journey with them. =)

[Henkel.Trocken]

I don’t doubt that if KLM introduce the Cathay C seat they will rise straight to the top of the heap in terms of European carriers for hard product showing up all except perhaps LX and OS, oh and of course New Club World courtesy of BMI.

(Does that now mean the others are old club world and very old club world or perhaps Vintage Club World in honour of their chief apologist?) 😉

[NameRemoved-18/12/14]

At the risk of generalising, the great thing about the Dutch is you know where you stand! I have limited experience of longhaul KLM – twice to Delhi, once to Karachi and once to NY, but I am looking forward to using my new FB Gold.

I just wish KL would return to Belfast.

[Edski777]

I trust (and hope) that after such a long time studying and with hiring an acclaimed designer KLM will announce and introduce a world class C seat. In line with Henkel I hope they will rise to the level of LX and keep their competitive pricing and great service.

I think many of us in this thread will be ever so slightly disappointed if they don’t live up to the expectation they themselves created.

Only 3 weeks to go ….and we’ll know!

[MReedGB]

..as we know now..that KLM is a good or some here will say a great company…but coming back to the topic…this new C product has to be par with the new AF C or CX C product otherwise it will be a huge disappointment !!..why so the high expectation?? Well, if KLM is a fantastic airline and an innovative one than implementing a C product seat à la CX is not a brainer and easy task for those genius in the management…KLM is a great airline and I tried them twice in the past…the only hate factor was and still now was the lie flat seat..the rest was good and worth the money paid…so hopefully KLM would not disappoint us like LH with its “antisocial” configuration of a C class product…this should be a warning for KLM !

[Henkel.Trocken]

Somehow I doubt anyone else will be introducing the new LH longhaul C seat!

[KSHaggag]

KLM has always been a great airline with leading ideas and let s recall that they are the first ever European carrier to introduce what is now called ” Business Class ” …this said ,of course our expectations are quite high and i personally hope KLM does NOT copy anybody else s product ..We want to see something really new and innovative and since they are forking out millions and hiring a professional designer then it s a good opportunity now or never to get it right …Every different seat design nowadays among the best and most highly perceived e.g. Swiss,CX ,AF ,etc has its pros and cons ..no design is absolutely perfect ..there have always been pitfalls …and afterall it is a matter of taste and personal perception but in all cases there is a criteria that we all agree on : fully flat ,horizontal at 180′ seat ,the rest comes afterwards with extra refinements and product sharpening …Generally speaking ,the LH seat in C is still a great improvement on what they used to have by all standards …

Last but not least : until 2006/7 the KLM business class cabins on the 744 ,M11 specifically were THE MOST SPACIOUS in the world ..Yes ,it is great to have your privacy safeguarded on board but all innovations the airlines have come up with claiming providing extra privacy had the sad consequence of wasting a lot of space that could have been used much more smartly ..All the best ,KLM and please now that we are all here holding our breath and expecting something revolutionary ..please do not copy others ;why should you copy AF ?

[AMcWhirter]

Hello KSHaggag

Yes it was KLM who launched the concept of business class way back in 1975.

KLM branded it “Full Fare Facilities” and it was a separate small cabin set aside for those who had paid the full economy class fare.

But it was left to Qantas to upgrade business class in around 1980 into a more luxurious experience.

By “luxurious”in those days, I mean 2-4-2 on the B747 which is what you find today in some carrier’s premium economy cabins.

But the downside was that Qantas passengers paid more than the full economy fare to fly business class whereas with KLM’s original FFF Facilities you did not.

[KSHaggag]

Hello Alex !

Thanks a million for your elaboration .

Indeed ,I can stil recall my Father using KLM in the early eighties on longhaul sectors e.g. AMS /NRT ,AMS/MNL,AMS/BKK ,etc …and paying Full Fare while enjoying that “select” cabin with all the facilities and perks that came with it in those days ..At that time ,a great service -oriented airline notably Swissair was so proud of resisting the concept ,claiming their Swiss Class (Economy ) beats others so called Premium offerings !…we are today looking back at those days and smiling .

[Montero]

Hello everyone,
sorry to ruin the happy mood but the seat KLM has choosen is the BE Diamond seat : 2-2-2 layout (the same CO post-UA chose for his business class).
You can see it on this page : http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/1234740-klm-rumoured-have-chosen-diamond-seat-7.html

So definitely not a high end seat …and way behind the next AF Cirrus style (like CX)

[MarcusUK]

Just checked the KLM Corporate website.
The launch of the new Overall Business cabin, will be made
19th March 2013.

[BusinessTraveller]

A media event has been called for the afternoon of Tuesday March 19, where the new fully flat business class seat will be officially unveiled.

We will report further on this next week.

[Tom Otley]

There’s a sketch of the new seat here

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2013/03/18/arts/18iht-design18-picC.html

in this article

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/18/arts/design/hella-jongeriuss-redesign-of-klms-business-class.html?pagewanted=all&goback=%2Egmr_2136397%2Egde_2136397_member_223752883

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