[MartynSinclair]

If you are better qualified than me to answer your question, answer it, otherwise I will leave it for BA to respond.

Is it your belief that I made a false statement? if so, be a gem and correct me?

Of course, though, we seem to be forgetting the real issue of this thread, the use (or rather miss use) of 60B, which again you appear to continue to support its use by ‘cling-ons’ and others. I wonder why…………

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Martyn

You know what you saw, I was not there.

I am not accusing you of anything, just trying to understand what you witnessed, as your words suggest (at least to me) that you saw an illegal activity, in which case it should be reported.

If your words, written in good faith, do not mean an illegal activity, then clearly there is no need to report it.

As posted previously, I am no longer going to debate the use of 60B with you.

[MartynSinclair]

But despite all of this, you still prefer to ignore the real topic of the thread about seat 60B, prefering instead to mix the pot with a big wooden spoon and try to undermine my posts with side issues.

So tell me DS, would you allow, assuming you had the authority, which of course you dont, as you are not a BA pilot (huh!), to permit 2 children, defined as being under 11 + 1 adult, to “timeshare” 60B + 2 jump seats on a full the upper deck. Would it concern you as a full fare passenger (if you do pay full fare) or being the extremely charitable person you appear to be, would you consider it an act of kindess to permit the upper deck to be a crew/crew children’s overflow area?…………or as usual, are you going to duck the question.

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Martyn

I mean this kindly and as a constructive criticism, but you really wouold benefit from carefully proof reading some of your posts, before putting them live.

In this posting of yours, it reads as if you saw illegal activities on a BA flight. If you did, that is not a side issue, it is very important.

I take it that you did not, by your lack of response.

As for 60B, it is BA’s seat to use as they wish.

When I buy a ticket from BA, I am not entitled to any particular seat nor is any other passenger, the airline may always change seat allocation for operational reasons.

It would not bother me at all if a seat was used by three people, so long as they behaved reasonably.

[MartynSinclair]

on the basis that crews jump seats are approved for crew use or company employees and minors can be neither and further each aircraft item has to have an approved useage, then the use of these seats by minors can not be an approved use by the CAA. Draw your own conclusions DS. You obviously are well aware of the answer, otherwise you would have corrected me, after all, you are a highly regarded Consultant, advising BA, on occasions!

“When I buy a ticket from BA, I am not entitled to any particular seat nor is any other passenger, the airline may always change seat allocation for operational reasons” (please explain relevance to the discussion)

“It would not bother me at all if a seat was used by three people, so long as they behaved reasonably” – sure thing – DS – I believe that you would create one of the biggest toys out of pram postings if this had happened to you.

The only people accepting musical chairs on the upper deck are those who benefit past, present or future.

ps – suggest you run a spell check before you post live (line 1, until its changed).

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Martyn

“on the basis that crews jump seats are approved for crew use or company employees and minors can be neither and further each aircraft item has to have an approved useage, then the use of these seats by minors can not be an approved use by the CAA. Draw your own conclusions DS. You obviously are well aware of the answer, otherwise you would have corrected me, after all, you are a highly regarded Consultant, advising BA, on occasions!”

I am not aware of the answer. I gave advice to BA in the past (so have tens or even hundreds thousands of others), but nothing to do with this area.

“DS – I believe that you would create one of the biggest toys out of pram postings if this had happened to you.”

Why? I’ve often had people upgraded to a free seat next to me and I’ve been moved to other seats on boarding.

It’s the airline’s perrogative to allocate your seat.

The only time I was really annoyed, was when I paid for a business seat A-B, B-C on a flight with a single flight number, where the existing pax stay on board during the stop and, in a cabin where the middle seat should be kept free.

The airline’s agents filled the empty aisle and middle seats for B-C with economy class pax and then the cabin crew provided economy service to all, on the mistaken understanding the flight operated all Y for that sector. I had a ‘C’ class boarding pass.

I received 8 x upgrade vouchers for that one, so on reflection not the worst thing that ever happened 😉

[MartynSinclair]

“Have you written to the CAA, expressing your concerns about the children on the crew seats?

<a href="mailto:mailto:[email protected]“>mailto:[email protected]“
&<a href="mailto:gt;[email protected]“>gt;[email protected]“

DIsgustedofSwiegi – thank you very much for the contact and email address at the CAA. I took your advice and the matter has been forwarded to the Flight Operations Inspector for investigation.

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Martyn

If you saw something that you believe is illegal or affecting flight safety, then I totally support your action in contacting the CAA.

[MartynSinclair]

My email was responded to within 48 hours and I had a very interesting chat with Flight Safety. Took me back to my younger days when I was going through FCL. Really friendly, helpful and interesting.

The upshot is that the case of “musical chairs” is being investigated. One area is if the ‘kling-ons’ were fare paying, there could be a safety issue based on the number of passengers (not crew) travelling on the upper deck.

I am not sure about responses, but anything further I hear, I will post.

I acknowledge your call on this Disgusted, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. You do have your uses!!

[barnacles]

Any news, Martyn, on the ‘investigation’? I

n the meantime, here’s a thing. Last month, from JNB to LHR, I was given seat 60B at check-in (some time before the flight crew arrived at the airport). When I said how unusual this was, I was told by the check-in girl that “when the flight is full we release the seat”.

This begs a number of questions. Firstly, who authorises the release? Secondly, when and how? Thirdly, what happens if the Captain arrives with a relative and ‘kicks up stink’? On the night in question, the Captain’s son, travelling with him as a ‘cling-on’, got [the usual] F seat.

As a footnote, it’s worth noting that the JNB ground staff often fail to respect the rules. For example, those relating to the seniority of staff standby pax, so that friends of theirs/those who shout loudest at check-in or the gate often end up in better seats (e.g. J) than their seniority justifies, to the detriment of staff with more senior priority who end up in Y class.
Such is life!

[MartynSinclair]

Dear Barnacles

A Senior Cabin Safety Inspector at the CAA confirned the matter is being investigated by Flight Operations Inspector at BA. The last update was on the 9th Feb.

Hope you enjoyed your J’burg flight.

Regards

Martyn

[MartynSinclair]

I have now had a reply from the CAA about the seat 60B issue and the 3 people sharing the seat, that happened on a recent trip to BKK.

The CAA have made reference to the British Airways Operations Manual which obviously I do not have on my shelf.

In order that I can complete my research into this matter, would anybody have access to the manual in pdf foramt or be able to suggest a source.

I know its a big ask, but never the less I am hoping that the BT forum can come up with a copy for me.

Many thanks

[CallMeIshmael]

Martyn,
I posted this a couple of months ago on a different thread. Not sure if you saw it, however if it is reserved then full ADP should be paid too.

MartynS – Take a gander at 2.6.4 – it relates to upgrades – if there is a possibility of upgrade (60B springs to mind) then the full ADP appears payable.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000505#P9_212

[MartynSinclair]

Thanks CallMeIshmael

Yes I did see your posting. The tax position is one issue.

I am interested to see what the BA Ops Manual says about staff travelling and the use of premier cabin crew seats. I am especially keen to understand whether BA sanction the use of crew bench seats on the upper deck for kling-ons, including the children of crew and what the manual says about 3 people sharing one seat.

The upper deck has a very special feel as most of us who use it, all agree. There are 2 seperate issues here (as well as the APD issue):

1. Whether a pilot needs 2 beds to sleep in (one within the flight deck and 60B)? (which has been flogged to death)

2. Whether the upper deck (CW) is the place for “kling-ons” to squat on crew seats and sharing 60B if the pilot decides appropriate.

The ops manual would at least give the official BA view and rules, but I guess getting a copy of the manual is going to be difficult.

[CallMeIshmael]

Martyn, I doubt if you will find the clarity you require in the SOP manual and will probably find it a moot point, flexing with politics of the day – ie whatever is the current edict, which does change.

For example the CSD used to have an influence on upgrades, based on pax circumstance or crew seniority. All updgrades used to be logged to avoid abuse and have a record should there be an issue.

During the industrial dispute the powers that be have apparently given total carte blanche now to the Captain – he appears to have sanction, should he wish to use it, to updgrade any person (who he may have just met on the golf course, or recently joined FO) to the detriment of loyal pax, noteworthy person or long serving crew – these are seldom logged.

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