[Papillion53]

Good morning TimF – thanks again, post deleted.

Mr LP – morning! We did call BAEC and everything is fine they assured us! Anyway I’m “sort of” looking forward to flying with AA as I haven’t flown with them long haul before, so it will be interesting for me as it’s been a long time since I’ve flown anything other than BA long haul.

And it won’t be on a BA old banger 747-400! 😉 :-). However, I must just add that the last BA 747s we flew on were clean and tidy and not an inch of duct tape in sight! I still prefer OF though!

Edited to add: Thanks Esselle just spotted your post! 🙂

[Bucksnet]

I think the point STORMIN’ was trying to make is that BA have cut their first class product so much that it is not really first class any more, and more like a better business product. Plus the cuts are affecting the state of the aircraft too much.

[TominScotland]

Fine, I accept that but if folk are willing to pay for it as First, that is their choice, surely. If they are not willing to pay, then it is BA’s choice to be non-competitive in that market. There is no established, official standard as to what First Class actually means – a bit like hotels describing themselves as “7 star” – what does that actually mean? All I am saying is that arguments which say BA should do this or should do that are meaningless – there is really no imperative for them to do anything at all…… If they fail, they fail!

[FormerlyDoS]

Tom

If you go to the butcher and buy a kilo of fillet steak and then get home and find it is sirloin, is that okay?

After all, you were under no obligation to buy from that butcher.

[TominScotland]

Different thing, altogether, FDoS

Fillet steak has specific product specifications and formal culinary definition (Filet mignon (French for “cute fillet” or “dainty fillet”) is a steak cut of beef taken from the smaller end of the tenderloin, or psoas major of the beef carcass, usually a steer or heifer. In French this cut can also be called filet de bœuf, which translates in English to beef fillet).

However, product/ service standards associated with the term “First Class” do not and have and continue to vary greatly over time and place. No doubt you have travelled “First Class” on US domestic flights – same term, very different product.

[esselle]

TominScotland

You are quite right to say there is no official standard as to what First Class actually means, but quite wrong to use that as some form of justification for the way BA set about things.

They go to great lengths in their marketing to describe the product they call First, and whilst it is not a contractual claim, in its purest sense, it is evidently designed to entice.

The comparison, made by some, that BA have so devalued their First product that it can be considered to be on a par with the J class product of some other carriers is quite valid.

BTW, I could also take issue with your description of fillet steak, but I won’t.

[FormerlyDoS]

Tom

I think you will find that the official name is ‘beef’, whereas fillet and sirloin are customary names.

Thus my comparison is closer to the bone than you may imagine (bad pun intended.)

Esselle has made the point I was getting at, so I’ll stop here.

Edited to add that I took an EY J class flight yesterday, where the service was in a different (higher) league to the last BA F trip, as was the food, whilst the screen size and IFE was similar.

[TominScotland]

Esselle, the description of beef was illustrative. If you consider BA’s Frst to be devalued, at risk of repeating myself, don’t buy it!!

FormerlyDoS, I think you will find that if you claim sirloin steak is fillet, you will be breaking consumer law.

I am not sure that the same can be applied with respect to claims made about First or Business Class.

[esselle]

Tom

Isn’t the point more to do with comparisons between, rather than definitions of?

BTW, on the beef point your comments sound like they were Googled.

[TominScotland]

Actually Wikipediaed but that is immaterial. The point here is that fillet steak refers to a specific part of the animal, as do a range of other cuts and selling them as anything else is against trade descriptions legislation.

All I am saying is that there are no similar impediments to calling something “First” or “Business” Class – there are wide discrepancies within both categories – take a look at Jetstar’s long-haul Business Class and sit that alongside Cathay or Singapore. They are all sold as Business Class…… Likewise, on the railways, Transpennine and Scotrail offer a “First Class” product which has no resemblance to East Coast. I could go on…….

[Bucksnet]

BA can call their best product whatever they want but, as other posters have said, it’s no better and in some cases worse than business products elsewhere.

[TominScotland]

No problems with your opinion there, Bucksnet. As I said earlier, if folk continue to buy it……….

[AllOverTheGaff]

TominScotland – 20/08/2013 08:50 GMT
There is no established, official standard as to what First Class actually means

In fairness, whilst I disagree with what Tom goes onto say, that is a very valid point, there is no industry standard which airlines are forced to meet to be able to call their cabins what they do.

a bit like hotels describing themselves as “7 star” – what does that actually mean?

Hotels are different Tom in that they have to meet criteria as set out by the tourism board, well, they do in this country, nevertheless, a 4-star hotel in Scotland will vary to a 4-star in the South of France, and indeed, a 4-star in Dubai. Each country will have their own criteria, from experience, 4-star hotels in South of France offer a 3-star UK experience – but then some 3-star UK hotels should actually be used as dog boarding homes.

Back to the original point of the discussion, the 747’s BA have in operation are tired and creaking due to a lack of investment, I was on one earlier this year and BA’s premier product has solidified my position that if this is the best they have, I’ll spend my money elsewhere. You go onto say that this is a choice we as consumers have, indeed you are correct. Similarly, forums such as this give us consumers the opportunity to share experiences good and bad to help in decision making when spending a lot of money on first class/business class travel.

[TominScotland]

AOTG – I am not sure we disagree at all here. I agree that BA’s 747’s are exceedingly tired and said so in a recent flight review. My objection is that people seem to be arguing that BA MUST change their products with the force of a moral or categorical imperative. All I am asking is “why should they, nobody makes us fly with them?”.

In terms of hotel grading, yes every country has its own grading system, generally based only on hard product criteria although that has changed to a more rounded assessment in the UK to some extent. Comparison is meaningly across countries and, in any case, our experience of hotels (as with airlines) can be very subjective. Even within branded products, there is no guarantee of consistency – I’ve stayed in Novotels in France that were probably 2 stars inferior to Novotels in Bangkok or Singapore. A familiar issue? Of course – try Emirates First in the A380 and then switch to an A330. At least, with the exception of mid-haul, the premium class seats (not WT+) on BA are reasonably consistent – whether you consider them good or bad.

[FormerlyDoS]

“At least, with the exception of mid-haul, the premium class seats (not WT+) on BA are reasonably consistent – whether you consider them good or bad.”

747 – OF/NF, NCW
777 – NF,NCW
767 – OCW
318 – CWLCY
Mid haul – Thomson areo

I count 6 different types, over 2 classes, quite a lot.

Then look at short haul premium

CE (A320 convertor)
CE (A320 space saver)
CE (A320 ex bmi)
767 (window and centre pairs have different configs)

Overall a dog’s dinner.

Agree about EK, a horrible mix of seats on different fleets, especially if your route is classed as second tier (e.g. Malta to Dubai.)

[Author]

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