[767prisoner]

Is BA way behind in the 767 refurb programme? I heard only1 long haul and 1 short haul have been done. Shame really as they are dropping apart and reflect badly on the airline. I also feel a bit shortchanged flying on such tatty planes when the competition is generally much more modern. Cant be fun for the staff either as they can hardly put BA’s best foot forward flying around in those old bangers. roll on the refurbs and 787s.

[Ah,Mr.Bond]

Hear Hear 767prisoner…. while I am, on the whole, a BA fan, when was the last time they bought new aircraft? Yes, the new 773 just started to trickle in last year, but they only have 6 in use at the moment – everything else is old stock. The order books from BA aren’t setting the world on light either…. to put into perspective, here is a list of Emirates orders:
69 X A380
70 X A350
84 X 773

BA? Well, 12 x A380 and 16 x 787… that’s yer lot!

[VintageKrug]

BA has an order (plus options) for almost 50 A380/787s which starts delivery next year (should have started delivery two years ago, but was delayed by manufacturing issues).

It has several further options on the 777-300ERs and I believe exercised one or two of those just last week.

Add to that the entirely new BA Cityflyer embraer fleet, about 10 (not sure) new airbuses for the Heathrow fleet and a pending decision on the Gatwick 737 fleet (more likely to involve some sort of sale/rebrand) and some sort of joint Iberia/BA order for the renewal of the balance of the fleet whish is due shortly, and for a mature airline with a fleet of around 200 aircraft, all maintained to the highest standards and most owned by BA since new, the story is quite good.

I’d expect the BA/Iberia order to be among the largest in history, though probably not trumping the Emirates order; getting the finance to do such a deal is probably what maneoverings like the creation of BA Limited (owning the CWLCY aircraft and some prime LHR slots) is all about.

Especially against the background of some of the most trying economic times.

One would expect newer players based in areas of rapid growth to have larger fleet renewal plans than an airline like BA, though I think even Emirates will have over-reached itself; having said that, it has never been an airline particularly focussed on the bottom line….nonetheless good to see British Aviation executives (Tim Clark is former British Caledonian, now part of BA) powering ahead in the Gulf.

[Bruce98]

Emirates has declared a profit for 24 consecutive years.

Obviously a company that does not focus on the bottom line!

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/10/emirates_airline_profits_hit_by_higher_fuel_bill/

[BigDog.]

Certainly enforces the case for schoolchildren to continue with basic maths and english until they pass. Maybe 12 plus 24 is nearly 50 in the current GCSE system but nowhere else. Even if options were included the total is 43.

BA has 12 A380s (Value around $5billion) on order and 24 787s

The orders would put BA at tenth place in the 787 owners league and sixth in the A380s – pretty average really.

Posters should research their facts, avoid unnecessary embellishments and making silly claims.

American Airlines ordered 460 new aircraft in 2011. 200 737s and 260 A320 value over $40 billion
Air Asia 200 A320-neos; Lion Air 230 737s (Max and ERs) value $22 billion.
All Nippon Airways made a single order of 50 787s … the list goes on

[rferguson]

@ vintagekrug: BA exercised options on three 773’s last week. BA are really happy with the ones currently in the fleet. It almost has the capacity of a mid J 747 yet a hell of a lot more economical. Also the products on board are all the latest. In fact if BA followed the likes of emirates, etihad, air France, klm et al the three new 777’s could easily surpass the 747 in terms of pax carried if they adopted the dreadful 10 abreast seating in Y.

But yes, BA is no EK in terms of new aircraft orders. Any new order has to have a very strong business case. Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of the mentality of ‘let’s buy a huge amount of brand new super jumbos then think of places we can send them’.

[LPPSKrisflyer]

referguson: good points but doesn’t it just bear out that these days BA are a follower rather than a leader.

EK introduced the 77W years ago, SQ replaced their 747s with 77Ws and A380s starting in 2006. AF, KL and many more have been operating the 77W for years and meanwhile BA stayed with their tired old 747s. They used to lead, now they follow, I don’t know what happened but they are not well managed or aspirational these days.

[Bruce98]

Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of the mentality of ‘let’s buy a huge amount of brand new super jumbos then think of places we can send them’ ……… to make a proft for 24 consecutive years.

[VintageKrug]

Really, BigDog (nice to see you back again, BTW), I was explicit in my original post (which I haven’t edited) that I was including options, and that the total was “almost 50”.

43 certainly satisfies the criteria for “almost 50” and I think it was quite apparent from the rest of my post that I was talking ballpark figures, and wasn’t presenting a detailed breakdown of numbers.

I think BA is still innovative, still able to invest in new concepts and has a comprehensive and fully funded programme of fleet replacement, which is no mean feat given the setbacks it has had to face in the past few years, over and above those faced by others in the industry.

It’s not Emirates, but then as a customer I wouldn’t want it to be like Emirates.

It’s great news that they’ve ordered 3 more 777-300ERs, and while as a passenger I’d like to see more 380s and 747-8’s, I’m very happy with the big twin, which is superb to fly on.

[JohnHarper]

Some posters, well one in particular likes to post things as though they are facts when in fact the are fiction.

When I went to school and since then 12 + 24 = 36. 36 is 72% of 50 so in reality no where near. Another false claim to add to many others.

Add that to how far behind any other major carrier BA are on introducing either the A380 or the 787 or the 77W and you see that what we essentially have is an airline which is second rate and badly managed. As a shareholder I mind that when Walsh and his cronies have their noses so deep in the trough.

[BA744fan]

EK makes a profit because it’s jet fuel is massively subsidised. AF/KL is virtually bankrupt and only continues to fly thanks to government support.

BA consistantly turns a profit, barring the odd mishap like strikes and volcanic ash and they achieve this by squeezing every last mile out of their fleet.

[VintageKrug]

It’s difficult to call out Emirates profitability, but their accounts leave something to be desired. They reported profitability is probably no indication of their operational profitability.

[JohnHarper]

And SQ and many more? SQ receives no subsidy and faces fierce competition on all it’s routes particularly shorthaul from it’s own base, not some second rate airport more than fifty miles away.

[rferguson]

@ saviourmonk: I’m not going to go down the road of ‘but emirates gets free fuel’ because I know that is not the case. However, if BA did have some of the operating advantages that EK has i’m sure there would be a lot more money in the pot to buy shiny new planes.

EK’s biggest asset is that the government of Dubai is very ‘aviation friendly’. Well Emirates friendly anyway. What EK has needed in terms of infrastructure, Dubai has provided. A massive hub with plenty of room for new runways. No curfew whatsoever. Another HUGE nebefit is that EK has amazing aircraft utilization. Without any curfew at their home hub they can work their timetable so aircraft are almost constantly in ‘work mode’. BA? Third runway debacle. Operating from an airport that is at capacity and with a night curfew every night reducing aircraft utilization. A government that won’t allow any expansion because people (the overwhelming majority of which stupidly brought their house under a flight path or near the airport way after it was operating) play politics with it.

Not to mention unions (im sure EK dont havce any strike threats), pension funds (BA’s pension obligations once exceeded the value of the airline) which require a massive ‘top up’ from BA, the highest aviation taxes in the world…the list goes on.

Edited to add: Ditto SQ

[JohnHarper]

SQ is curfew constrained both at Changi and in other places they operate to and from including LHR and SYD. This severely limits their ability to make best use of their aircraft.

Changi has been developed as a regional hub but it is open to all. The government don’t mind who uses it so long as it’s busy and that has allowed serious competition to park itself on SQ’s lawn. I wonder if LHR was not capacity constrained and FR were in there with all the slots they could possibly want how BA’s shorthaul operation would look. Pretty sad I would think.

[Author]

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