[rferguson]

There was a time when the 767 was seen as far superior in Club Europe on short haul flights versus the airbus.

Anyone remember when the airbus and my beloved 757 had that dreadful 2 x 3 config in Club Europe? That was AWFUL for the person in the middle seat on the ‘3’ side. Whereas the 767 has always had a 2x2x2 config in CE. Pax loved knowing they wouldnt be lumbered with the dreaded ‘E’ seat.

Then about two years ago BA decided to abandon the 2 x 3 config and went for 2 x 2 on the airbus. HUGE improvement.

How the tide can turn….

[Ah,Mr.Bond]

Sparkyflier – ” Not been on a shorthaul 767 in a while, but for the reasons given, the longhaul 767 is I think the most comfortable and enjoyable BA plane to fly on”

…… even better than the upper deck on a 747? I think not!!

[rferguson]

Here is my pro’s and con’s of a longhaul 767.

Pros:
Configuration in all classes. No middle seats in J or W.
No First Class. Club always first off.
Crew is generally more cohesive and team orientated.
AVOD tends to be a lot more stable on this aircraft.
A much higher crew to passenger ratio in J class.

Cons.
Old CW flat bed.
Lack of stowage space in overhead lockers on non-refurbished aircraft.
General dreary cabins/toilets of non refurbished aircraft.
Tend to have technical problems more regularly than other aircraft tyypes.
No bunks for crew rest! 🙂

On the shorthaul aircraft the pros and cons vs the airbus are debatable.
In Economy the configuration is 2x3x2. The Club Europe seating is 2x2x2. To achieve this it is only the MIDDLE block of two that actually gain any room (ie ‘DEF’ are collapsed to make D&F). So as ahmebond points out AB and JK seats remain as is….so you will have to share an armrest.

[GoonerLondon]

I dont know why you think the CE on a 767 is different to other CE because the 2 on the window sides on the SH 767 are in fact wider than economy, you just don’t have the thin middle gap as you do in he middle.

Its the same seat design as on the narrow body where the DEF side expands a little .

Having said that – it wont be quite as spacious – 6 abreast is changed to 5 abreast on the narrow bodies whereas 7 abreast is changed to 6. If you want a real scandal where there is genuinely no difference, then go CE out of City airport!

That said its always best to go for the middle on the 767 where you have the benefit of the gap. But then as a ‘SILVER’ member of course you knew that… (Im not being rude, just amused about the idea that having low level DYKWIA FF status justifies some sort of enhanced complaint response – actually I think all those who bother to write should have a good response – but lets not get distracted)

Short-haul CE (and 767s) goes to Istanbul and Athens – both similar (or longer) than Larnaca. Im not sure why a leisure route is picked out as being somehow more deserving of a more spacious ‘longhaul’ business product. I’d have though most leisure travellers don’t mind paying a little more for enhanced service / comfort but would baulk at the prices necessary to put on full Club.

Compare and contrast business class prices for the three routes I mention against Cairo, Beirut and Tel Aviv that get the full monty. Then also bear in mind that EasyJet flies to many of these destinations. I don’t hear anyone saying thats a disgrace?

Each market can evolve with what people are prepared to pay. Moscow was switched to long-haul – which was hardly a surprise given people were already paying £1000 for the same CE experience in a 767 that you have raised. Thats now long haul.

I assume you didn’t offer to pay £1000+ to fly CW to Larnaca as one of your ‘handy comments’?

[wilson3]

I too recently flew club class on this route. The plane was dirty and very tired. The food was awful, both ways.(no choice on the way out ). The only saving grace was the BA lounge at T3. The Swiss lounge at Larnaca was a shambles, with used dishes and glasses rarely collected. There is no real competition.

[Ah,Mr.Bond]

GoonerLondon – there are many errors re the information you have posted above ;
– They are not wider, you share an armrest which you do not on an A320, infact BA can increase the rows in CE depending on booked loads, they just move the curtain and adjust the middle row of seats.
– An A320 CE cabin is 2-2, not 2-3 (assume 5 abreast was a typo!!)
– Each seats should be the same in the CE cabin. You want a consistent product! I prefer a window on a day flight so should not have to book a middle row just to benefit from more space, which is what BA sell it as over economy.
– Silver/Gold should get dedicated customer service channels.
– LCA is much farther than ATH or IST, you just have to look at a map!
– CAI and TLV are outside the Eurozone so pay hundreds in extra taxes for a start for only another hours worth of flight.. plus they use longhaul aircraft with longhaul product – not the same aircraft as is being discussed. BEY they don’t even fly to, although it was a BMI route so will be taking that up.
– Easyjet ??? what has that got to do with BA club Europe? They only have one cabin and you get what you pay for!

[Ah,Mr.Bond]

Ah, Wilson3….. T3, the memories!…. All pax for all destinations are held in a main departure lounge – They have no gates whatsoever, you are all then shoved out a door onto the tarmac and bussed out to the aircraft parked in the rain…. LOVELY!

[GoonerLondon]

Well not errors merely differences of opinions:
– You share an armrest but there is more space between the armrest for where you actually sit. Ergo – wider seat. Ie different to economy
– on an A320 the seats are 2-3, the PAX may well be 2-2.
– There will always be differences and ‘better seats’. Thats why these forums exist. The difference you talk about used to be true of the A320/19 until they stopped selling the middle seat. You will recall there was a time when they didn’t bother to do the conversion either, so the seat was the same width as economy.
– FFs get dedicated numbers that put them ahead of the queue. Once they get there its the same people doing the same job. No one should have anything less than a great experience one they are being served.
– Flying times are similar – thats the point i was making. I could have added Sharm and Hurghada as further places where SH CE has been flown.

The other parts were simply looking at the surrounding noise of this thread. You get what you pay for. If you want more you will have to pay more. But because Easyjet compete it further adds to the issue in enhancing the product.

[rferguson]

Gooner you raise some good points.

I guess there is always going to have to be a cut off point from what is ‘longhaul’ to what is ‘shorthaul’. A mere thirty minutes more flying time from LCA and you will be on a 777 to Tel Aviv or Cairo with First and new flat beds in Club.

What makes CAI and TLV longhaul and LCA shorthaul I really do not know. I would suspect though that it is the huge amount of transit pax to North America from CAI and TLV versus the predominately UK-LCA point to point traffic. However, fare levels do take this into account. A quick look at fares in September on BA.com (departing 17/9 returning 24/9). The cheapest fare to TLV from LHR is £527 return in WT. Club return is £1087 taking the cheapest alternative. LCA however is a VERY different matter. Same dates. Return in ET is £421. CE is £706. In fact on the outbound journey the cheapest ET fare is £223 in Y and £299 in J. A difference of £65! BA are not commanding a HUGE premium in fares in J on the route, I guess because the differences between the two classes on board are not huge either.

I think we will see BIG changes coming in the winter schedule. With the introduction of the ex BMI (ex ex BMed) A321s and A320s with ‘proper’ mid haul J class cradle seats I can imagine they will be utilized on routes like LCA. But I would suspect that fares in J will wise with it.

[GoonerLondon]

I agree with you rferguson.

And lets just say Larnaca does go long haul – what about the Paphos flights? They are stil being run on arthritic 737s!

Think of what happened on SSH: it worked well as a CE route under GB, and still works well as Easyjet, BA tried full Long Haul, and it didnt work out at all. People just werent going to pay the extra for the product.

I dont think the schdule helped either mind.

[rferguson]

Absolutely Gooner.

There will always be differences in aircraft operating a certain route or two different routes of similar length. Like you say, better seats, worst seats.

A friend of mine yesterday flew LH from LCY on an Embraer jet. At least unlike BA they do try and differentiate Business Class from Economy Class a little on their E-Jets (BA has exactly the same seats throughout the cabin with no seats blocked off ex LCY). But the LH config is 2 x 2 in J…but they make it 3 abreast by blocking out a seat…but only on one side! lol. and 2 x 2 in Y. So of course if you are in J on the side without the ‘blocked off’ seat you would be pretty peeved.

In fairness to BA, on ba.com they make no claim whatsoever of a Club Europe seat being bigger, wider or with more legroom than a Eurotraveller seat. The only thing said under Travel Classes – Club Europe – Onboard – Cabin and seating is:
“The separate Club Europe cabin at the front of the aircraft gives you the seclusion and space you need to work, eat or relax. For greater privacy and comfort we guarantee a window or aisle seat. Simply sit back in your comfortable contoured leather seat and enjoy your flight.”

However in his original post ahmrbond makes a really valid point about the shorthaul 767s. The general state of appearance of the cabins is pretty appalling and definitely needs some attention. And thankfully, BA have taken their wallet out and began doing something about it.

[scott66]

This could tie in with another thread discussing the value of airport lounges.

As the seat is the same and the food little different from economy, effectively the difference is another suitcase and a lounge pass. Those that use the lounge passes felt £15-£25 each way was a fair price for the lounge facilities. I can’t see anyone agreeing that £250 each way is a good deal. I can’t remember where the original BA767 flight departed from,if it was T5, can you buy a BA lounge pass? Or Gatwick which does have third party lounge facilities?

[rferguson]

You cannot under any circumstances buy a lounge pass for BA lounges at T5.

Other benefits of flying Club Europe is enhanced catering, champagne, never a middle seat, increased baggage allowance, bonus avios points and the biggie is bonus tier points. There is a flat ‘business class’ tier point level so even when you are on the most discounted and restricted Club ticket you still receive very generous tier points compared to any discounted economy fare.

[VintageKrug]

Don’t forget dedicated check in, fast track security access, hanging of jackets and plenty of overhead space for hand baggage.

[JonathanM8]

Economy in a 767 is actually quite pleasant if there are just two of you travelling. I have just booked to IST and thought about Club, but actually the seating is the same, you get a hot breakfast behind the curtain (OK so without ‘posh’ crockery) and at that time of day I don’t really need the champagne.

And to confirm on the ’empty’ passenger, full cargo front, the 07.00 from LHR to FRA is always a 767 for the cargo – I cant think of the last time it was even half full of passengers, even on a Monday

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