[DisgustedofSwieqi]

The data was issed in 2007, to reflect the budget over the period 2007-2013.

If you wish to be picky, Bucksnet, the actuals are not known until some years ‘post hoc’, so it is all speculation.

And these numbers were contested by the pro Europe lobby.

Make of that what you will.

Lugano

Malta is not as efficient as Swtzerland, but recently public opinion forced a pay cut for MPs and our PM tends to travel on Air Malta scheduled flights, rather than on a private jet. I’ve seen him on a few occasions, always try to get as far back in business as possible, as pax will come and berate him for policies – real accountability.

[RichHI1]

The statistics are interesting however as someone who always opposed UK membership of Europe I believe Disgusted you are 100% correct.
As a nation the UK has carped and complained but accepted with the conservatives (Heath, Thatcher and Major ) for taking us into “an economic only grouping, there is no political agenda – E Heath) and signing up to Single European Act and Masstricht, then agreed with Labour who delivered a referndum so complicatedly phrased it confused most people and have supported Europe, treaties et al (includign the ifasco in Ireland where they got the wrong verdict so thyy just did it again.
I think the problem is it is not a Party political issue as those at the top of the tree on all sides are not going to rock the boat. For the UK to escape from this fate requires a coming together of politicians from all sides to listen to their electorate. There was hope once for UKIP but with their showbiz episode and attacks from the established media they no loger have credibility.
I once hoped for some backbone when Gordon Brown became PM as he effectively killed off the Euro in the UK but the system took over.
There is now talk of a referendum again and I hope it is not fixed like last time.
To make my position very clear, I think the EU is an excellent institution for those mainland countries who have cultural political and economic bonds over centuries. I do not believe the UK, Turkey, Israel or North Africa fit in this description though part of Russia does. I think the Euro is bound ot fail until a single unfieid fiscal policy is implemented and at present I think this is politically unacceptable. Whether they can buy enough time to fix this, we shall see.
The UK was taken into the EEC under false pretences as an economic only initiative and should revert to purely this. I believe that the UK should be a proponent of Free Trade with all nations, join NAFTA and work with India and China as well as all our Commonwealth froends who we deserted on joining the EEC with tarriffs and barriers, so that we can undermine Fortress Europe and liberalize trade globally trying to address the third world imbalance as best we can. (I think it is shameful the way the Eu and also the US and other countries subsidize their farmers to the disadvantge of third world economies). Sermon over , apologies to those I have offended.
The UK is a far from perfect country with many political and economic issues however I see the EU for the UK as being a brake on their resolution rather than their enabler.
But even I cannot blame Europe for the APD which iniquitous and should be scrapped at once.

[transtraxman]

Can we get back to the real point of this post?
With due respect, a debate on the merits of EU membership is not relevant here. The present situation we have to live with, like it or not.

What, in my opinion, is important is if a tax on passengers or flights should exist at all. If so then how should it be structured? Can government be influenced, and in which way, in the application, or no, of any such tax? How can the desires of government to satisfy the environmental lobbies (meaning the reduction of aircraft use demanded by a very large number of voters) be balanced with the airline customers´ desires for competitive fares? Can this circle be squared to avoid the effect as indicated in the article mentioned in the original post?

VK 18/9 12.51hrs.
I do not dispute what you say. However, did the speech, by BA´s CEO Keith Williams, imply a further reduction of services? or did it mean that services which were going to be introduced (e.g. Havana) will not be?

There is more from BREAKING TRAVEL NEWS today…
“British Airways chief executive Keith Williams blames APD for Caribbean cuts”.

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/british-airways-plans-to-cut-caribbean-routes/

And another piece from BREAKING TRAVEL NEWS
“British MPs raise concerns APD may stop families flying”

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/british-mps-raise-concerns-apd-may-stop-families-flying/

[NTarrant]

An excellent post RichHI1

[LuganoPirate]

As long as UK rail fares, and rail fares to Paris Brussels ex UK, are kept so astronomically high compared to trains in Europe, people will continue to choose air travel for short haul flights.

I just checked London – Brussels, Day return, for an unbelievable £430 for a fully flexible ticket, or £ 300 return for a semi-flexible. This is 2 -3 times the costs for a similar journey in continental Europe, also using high speed trains, and even cheaper for a fully flexible 2nd class ticket.

There is no excuse for this at all. Train travel should be cheap and people will use it. I remember not long ago looking to go to Cornwall with the family by train. I could not believe the fare was over £900 for the four of us. In the end we went by car, which we rented and cost us £200 including the petrol.

I still think privatising the railways was a mistake and till fares get down to European levels the plane will be first choice for most, and APD will continue to rise as Goverment sees this as a wonderful cash cow.

[NTarrant]

Lugano I find £900 for four people travelling to Cornwall a little unbeleivable unless you were travelling from Wick or Thurso. Where were you travelling from and to?

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Have a look on The Trainline and you will find that an Anytime return from London to Penzance, in standard class, is indeed £996 for four adults.

[AMcWhirter]

LuganoPirate,

Not all UK rail fares are expensive. You just need to book ahead and choose the date, time and TOC carefully.

If UK rail fares were that high then the TOCs wouldn’t have captured so many passengers from the airlines over the past few years – even on longer stages like London to Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow. You only need to see how UK air services have declined to see that fewer passengers are flying domestically.

As for Eurostar … I agree it’s expensive but you must compare like with like. Eurostar is a special international service operated by purpose-built 18-coach trains so its costs are much higher compared with Thalys, TGV or ICE within mainland Europe.

It is special because it had to be built to a higher standard to meet Tunnel safety requirements. Moreover all Eurostar passengers are paying a toll to use the Tunnel.

Each 18-coach Eurostar train operates in two sections joined together. The idea is that in the event of an incident within the Tunnel, the train can be split. But it also means that other than the driver, two sets of on board staff are needed and the facilities (buffet, kitchens for food etc) are all duplicated.

In any case air tickets are not cheap when booked close to departure. Just check with ba.com and the cheapest LHR-BRU economy day return for tomorrow (based around business timings) is £536.

But you are right in that London-Brussels/Paris is probably the most expensive short trip in the world whether by train or plane.

[RichHI1]

Interesting, we debate Europe, we debate train prices but on APD I do not see a debate. No one likes it, no one is defending it. Yet with a Government that is focussed on removing taxation that starves growth, this abomination remains…

[AMcWhirter]

LuganoPirate –

You ought to find a good travel agent. There is no need for a family of 4 to pay so much for London-Penzance by train.

As a family of 4 travelling together you could have cut costs dramatically because (provided your children are under 16) you qualify for a Family Railcard.

According to The Trainline if you were to use a Family Railcard then the total fare (for 4 persons) is cut to £423 for an anytime return or £188 if going off-peak or a mere £151 for a super off-peak ticket. All these three ticket types permit flexible travel (within the relevant time bands).

If your children are aged 16 to 25 yrs then buy them each Young Persons railcard. You will not make such a big saving but the cost of travel is still reduced.

[NTarrant]

LondonCity is bang on on both posts, although I would never use the Trainline as they charge fees and their fares are usually more than TOC’s own website.

I just looked on First Great Western for out 23 returning 26 September between London and Penzance for a return travelling in the morning. You can get Standard Class return for £89.00 per person which is £356.00 for four assuming all adults before any other possible discounts with railcards or under 16’s.

The cheapest first class is £144.00 or £592.00, again assuming four adults and no railcards. A far cry from £900 plus

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Seems to me that you have to pay £996 for the same flexibility offered by a rental car, i.e. go at whatever time suits you, so the cheaper rail fares are not really a fair comparison.

[AMcWhirter]

Disgusted

The only restriction with the cheaper off-peak fares is that the first valid train from Paddington is at 0906 or 1006.

The full fare tickets are valid from Paddington at 0706 or 0730. So delay your departure by a couple of hours and you make a big saving. And I am sure that’s not a hardship for a family travelling together.

According to The Trainline all these tickets (both full fare and off-peak) are valid on all return services departing Penzance.

[NTarrant]

Actually no Disgusted, the £89.00 fare is a super off peak which whilst having restricted times it can be used is not as restrictive as an advance which allows you to travel only on the train you have booked on.

It does of course depend on your needs, very few people actually pay the top prices on long distance services. In fact the £996 against a car hire is not a fair comparison either.

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

So, in summary

With a hire car, you can go either way at any time you want to

Wth an Anytime rail ticket, you can go at any time you want to (so long as there is a train scheduled at that time.)

With a saver or off peak ticket, you cannot go at any time you want to.

Have I understood this correctly?

[Author]

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