No deal Brexit and aviation

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This topic contains 41 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  FaroFlyer 17 Jan 2019
at 16:58
.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 42 total)

  • Tom Otley
    Keymaster

    The intention here is not to argue for or against Brexit, just to discuss what might happen…

    If there is no deal, the Government has said the following

    “If there is ‘no deal’ with the EU, airlines wishing to operate flights between the UK and the EU would have to seek individual permissions to operate from the respective states (be that the UK or an EU country). In this scenario the UK would envisage granting permission to EU airlines to continue to operate. We would expect EU countries to reciprocate in turn. It would not be in the interest of any EU country or the UK to restrict the choice of destinations that could be served, though, if such permissions are not granted, there could be disruption to some flights.

    In order to ensure permissions were granted and flights continued, the UK’s preference would be to agree a basic arrangement or understanding on a multilateral basis between the UK and the EU. Alternatively, bilateral arrangements between the UK and an individual EU country could be put in place, specifying the conditions under which air services would be permitted. By definition any such agreement would be reciprocal in nature. The European Commission has previously acknowledged that a ‘bare bones’ agreement on air services would be desirable in the event of the UK leaving with ‘no deal’.

    Obviously this would have to be done before the end of March 2019. It hasn’t been done yet.

    What needs to be agreed?
    It depends on whether the airline is EU-licensed or UK-licensed.

    EU-licensed
    EU-licensed airlines would need two associated permissions in order to operate to the UK:

    First, they would require a foreign carrier permit. There is a long established procedure for applying for such permits, and carriers can find out more about applying on the UK Civil Aviation Authority website. This guidance will be updated shortly for operators of EU or EEA registered aircraft.

    Second, they would require a UK safety authorisation from the UK Civil Aviation Authority, a “UK Part-TCO (Third Country Operator)”. The CAA will consider each application for UK Part-TCO on a case by case basis, but in principle, an airline that holds a valid European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) Air Operator Certificate will be considered as having met the qualifying requirements to hold such an approval.

    The UK would expect this recognition of equivalent safety standards to be reciprocated by the EU in its ‘Part-TCO’ authorisations.

    UK-licensed

    UK-licensed airlines would need two associated permissions in order to operate to the EU.

    First, UK airlines will require permission from the national authorities of the states to which they operate (often referred to as a foreign carrier permit). Processes may vary in different EU countries, so airlines should start consulting the national aviation authorities within the relevant EU countries for details of how they grant foreign airlines permission to operate.

    Second, airlines from outside the EU require a safety authorisation from the EASA, known as “Part-TCO”. EASA has yet to provide the details for how and when it would process applications from UK airlines in advance of the UK leaving the EU. However, the UK would expect the recognition of equivalent safety standards to be on a reciprocal basis.

    EU-US Open Skies

    This deal from 2007 allows US and EU airlines access to each other’s markets and was the “most liberal ever agreed by Washington” according to the FT.

    Recent reports suggest a deal is imminent, but at worse terms than at present (“with tighter restrictions on ownership, tougher terms for new entrants and no special access to the Fly America programme, which allocates tickets for US government employees.”

    The FT in the article (link above) says
    “The EU-US open skies agreement was the most liberal ever agreed by Washington. By contrast, the draft UK text closely follows the US’s template for agreements with individual countries, including a clause on ownership that poses problems for UK-based carriers such as British Airways, Virgin Atlantic and Norwegian. This provision says airlines must have “substantial ownership and effective control” by UK or US nationals, an eligibility condition that would have ruled out British carriers because of their substantial foreign shareholdings.”

    No doubt further details will become clearer in coming weeks…

    Meanwhile,some other resources

    Excellent, very detailed summary here from International Airport Review

    UK exit from the EU and its impact on the UK aviation industry

    More general, consumer piece from the BBC website

    Brexit: What would ‘no deal’ mean for aviation?

    4 users thanked author for this post.

    canucklad
    Participant

    Cheers for the info Tom,
    3 of us are off to the HK 7’s flying with Lufthansa……on April fools Day
    Me and my mate are flying from Edinburgh with a very tight transfer time at Frankfurt.
    My other mate is catching the same FRA-HKG flight as us but crucially is leaving from Dublin.
    But just as crucially, 50% plus off the current route is over UK airspace.

    Will this journey rival a Shakespearean tragedy, will we all make that connection, that is the question?


    Flightlevel
    Participant

    Well good luck to you two ‘though I’m sure LH will meet the requirements ex EDI.
    Your other friend will have no problem since the UK government needs the overflight fees and they just have to bill IAG if EI don’t pay!


    Mark Caswell
    Keymaster

    Brexit: No visa but Britons will pay €7 to travel to EU countries

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46564884


    AMcWhirter
    Participant

    And what about Eurostar ?

    It now carries over 10 million passengers a year on what must be considered are three main business routes from the UK.


    CathayLoyalist2
    Participant

    ..and if that GBP7 charge goes ahead you can bet on a tit for tat charge for EU visitors


    capetonianm
    Participant

    and if that GBP7 charge goes ahead you can bet on a tit for tat charge for EU visitors

    The only problem I have with this is that it should be more.


    stevescoots
    Participant

    Paying 7 quid for 3 year visa free travel will be enough to send some pro remain apoplectic with rage. Despite the fact that an ESTA is $14 (I am not so pedantic to check exact amount) and this is actually a system due to start phasing in 2020 the EU has been bringing in for most non EU/EEA countries that currently have visa free travel. My HK friends on worthless UK BNO passports would have to have paid it anyway even if no Brexit. UK was not party to this as we are not Schengen so we should not apply that charge to EU nationals either. I dont believe in tat for tat unless there is a benefit for us

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    Flightlevel
    Participant

    Trust Eurostar stays the same, usually go to Paris Air Salon that way, cheaper and more comfortable than economy air travel, if longer.
    Easy to stay near to Paris Nord and get the commuter train to Le Bourget.
    Even with a visa its probably cheaper than air travel!


    MartynSinclair
    Participant

    “If there is ‘no deal’ with the EU, airlines wishing to operate flights between the UK and the EU

    OK – by my own admission I am not the Forum’s resident English grammar teacher – but had the Government’s statement had reversed naming the EU first and UK second, would the statement be understood any differently, i.e. placing more of an emphasis on the EU to sort this mess out….?


    canucklad
    Participant

    The only problem I have with this is that it should be more.

    Actually, I’d advise the British government to do exactly the opposite and take the moral and economic high ground.
    And for once in this Brexit shambles take a lead on the belligerent Brussels bureaucrats.
    APD is bad enough, but charging visitors to give them the right to spend their hard earned cash in the UK, is like Sainsbury’s installing turnstiles at the entrance to their stores.


    Henryp1
    Participant

    The only problem I have with this is that it should be more.

    Actually, I’d advise the British government to do exactly the opposite and take the moral and economic high ground.

    And for once in this Brexit shambles take a lead on the belligerent Brussels bureaucrats.

    APD is bad enough, but charging visitors to give them the right to spend their hard earned cash in the UK, is like Sainsbury’s installing turnstiles at the entrance to their stores.

    I believe that the UK should implement the exact same as the current EU countries as they do to UK nationals.


    LuganoPirate
    Participant

    I’m not sure if this EUR 7 is an “EU” charge or a “Schengen” one. Will it also apply to visitors to Switzerland and Norway for example? Both are in Schengen but out of the EU. And we must not forget, but Ireland is not in Schengen.


    AMcWhirter
    Participant

    Trust Eurostar stays the same, usually go to Paris Air Salon that way, cheaper and more comfortable than economy air travel, if longer.
    Easy to stay near to Paris Nord and get the commuter train to Le Bourget.

    Nobody knows for sure re Eurostar. What complicates matters is that it’s majority-owned by SNCF and, Calais/Lille/Paris excepted, it also runs through Belgium and Holland.

    We ran a recent air-rail feature in the magazine. I quoted the boss of rail agent Loco2 (which is owned by SNCF) saying that he believed the Eurostar situation would be resolved.


    LuganoPirate
    Participant

    We ran a recent air-rail feature in the magazine. I quoted the boss of rail agent Loco2 (which is owned by SNCF) saying that he believed the Eurostar situation would be resolved.

    Deal or no deal, it will all be resolved!

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