[MrMichael]

I have the answer. Get rid on short haul flights. On long haul the rule should be…lights up, do not recline your set, lights down, recline. Provided this is made clear by cabin crew at start of flight, and enforced (as far as they reasonably can) during the flight, everyone should be happy with a chance to work, play and kip.

[IanFromHKG]

Indeed, MrMichael. In fact, if you think about it, they can already centrally control the windows (on B787s) and the CW dividers (on B787s and A380s, IIRC) as well as the lighting (other than reading lights). How long can it be before they install centrally controlled reclining for all? And switch off the reading lights remotely….

[Agamemnon]

I agree that every passenger should be allowed to recline their seat, but on short-haul it’s just not necessary. As has already been stated, it makes working on a laptop on the table impossible too.

Recently on a family flight to Madrid on a 767 in the centre of a 2-3-2 format, my wife and I were on the outside and our 2yr old son in the centre seat. Both the outer passengers ahead fully reclined (they clearly weren’t happy about having a child behind them) and the immediate feeling of being cramped and almost trapped was obvious, making my son extremely agitated. We moved further down the plane as a result.

My personal trick (fair or otherwise) when working on a flight, is just to divert the blower full blast onto the top of their head – works every time…

[LuganoPirate]

All passengers will now recline their seat and sleep. Anyone not reclining or sleeping will be arrested on arrival for failing to obey the instructions of the crew. You have been warned!

Sorry MrMichael, couldn’t resist 😉

[LuganoPirate]

I’ve done that a few times as well Agamemnon and it does work. The other trick is to take a newspaper and keep rustling the pages over them, that usually works as well.

Travelling once with my first wife on KLM, she did this and the lady in front of her turned to say “you’re ruining my hair”. Quick as a flash she replied, no, your hairdresser has already done that for you! Not a peep after that.

[MartynSinclair]

What is interesting on the United story, is that despite the non scheduled diversion, no one was arrested and no names released.

Did the Captain/airline over react?

[LuganoPirate]

And if he’d thrown the water over her, I bet he’d have been arrested for assault!

My other thought is this could have been resolved perhaps by moving one or the other, but I don’t know how full, the plane was. An upgrade into business would have been cheaper than a divert I’d have thought.

[SimonS1]

All a bit odd.

Passenger disobeys an order given by the crew in the name of the captain – criminal offence.

Passenger throws water over someone – assault – criminal offence.

Yet the police weren’t interested?

[DavidGordon10]

I resuscitated the thread and have enjoyed the many posts today. The Guardian has followed-up with a jokey (not very) article http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/26/knee-defender-aeroplane-etiquette

The striking thing for me, in both Guardian articles, has been the balance of the comments on the website – many more saying “reclining your seat in someone’s face is inconsiderate” than those saying “I have bought a seat that reclines and I am going to use it” (I am in the first group, as is obvious from the earlier life of the thread).

I think the solution that BathVIP proposed this morning is the best, in that it would minimise fights and still allow some reclining.

[MartynSinclair]

The other consideration is the legality of using any mechanical device that materially affects the performance of an aircraft component, without approval from the FAA and sign off from the airline themselves.

In this case, the component in question stops the seat performing in the manner it was intended (i.e. removal of seat recline). I wonder if the airline could be sued for having a non approved component in use on an aircraft, with the airlines knowledge…but without engineering sign off….

[Edski777]

David, I was wondering: if I told you I will recline my seatback and you disagree: what should happen? Will be ask the flight attendant to settle this? Report this to the captain and ask for his judgement?
Reclining my seatback is, in my opinion, a “privilege” I bought with the ticket. You enjoy the same “privilege”, whether you use it or not.
The fact that you will be unable to work on your laptop should not interfere with my comfort during the flight.

In my opinion all this is a result of too many seats in a plane at an incredibly small pitch. I believe it is the result of the race to the bottom in comfort, service and price.
The result is ever more animosity on board. My prediction is it will even get worse before it gets better.

[IanFromHKG]

Agamemnon, I don’t know if you read my earlier post, but I suspect you are operating under the assumption that the short-haul flight is the only flight each pax is taking that day – and that is increasingly untrue.

Let me give you an example.

Next weekend the Memsahib and I are flying over to the UK. It’s for a funeral (sadly) so seats arranged at short notice. No availability on CX, BA or VS (the only nonstop carriers – and while I can bulldoze my way onto CX flights, the Memsahib can’t), so we are flying AY via Helsinki. Our flight leaves HKG at 00:25, which realistically means I won’t be able to get to sleep until 02:00. In practice I will probably try to wait longer to sleep in order to get closer to the European timezone. The flight takes almost eleven hours to HEL, arriving at 06:10 (04:10 UK time) – so we will probably be woken by 02:00 UK time, maybe 02:30 UK time if we are lucky. Then we transit, blah blah blah, and take off again at 07:55 Finnish time (05:55 UK time) on our 3-hour flight to London (an AY codeshare but on BA metal, I might add), landing at 09:05. And you know what? I am bl**dy well going to recline my seat on that connecting flight and try to sleep, and if the person behind me doesn’t like it, well tough, frankly.

I am not a naturally inconsiderate person, very far from it indeed, but in my view I am buying a seat with recline and I am entitled to use it – and I hasten to add that I know you acknowledged that I have the right to do so, but you also said it is “unnecessary” on a short-haul flight (such as this one) – and I just disagree, at least to a degree. Would I die if I couldn’t recline? No. But it is going to make a huge difference to my ability to sleep properly, and given my itinerary, I would say that it is “necessary” for me to have the best shot at sleeping on that flight.

I would like to add that I wholeheartedly agree with everything Edski777 has said

[LuganoPirate]

I’m just wondering, if pax in row 10 reclines his seat, and pax in row 11 does the same all the way back, will everyone then have the same amount of room and be able to eat, drink and work on laptops?

[Edski777]

Lugano, funny question that made me think about my own experiences.

In terms of space it remains the same. The distance from headrest to headrest doesn’t change.
Drinking in normally also not a real problem.

The irritation may start when you have to use your traytable. In case of eating your meal while reclined it can get quite messy. You can easily try it at home on the couch. Make sure you have a clean shirt available.

When using your laptop you can’t open your screen so the laptop gets very close to you. Even to a position where you can’t read the screen or use the keyboard. This can be extremely annoying and, as someone earlier in this thread noted, with the introduction of wifi on board: ludicrous.

I also started thinking again about the same old question of comfort, service and price.

I have seen many debates on this forum on the 777-300ER where airlines go for hard seats, virtually no legroom at 31 inch and 10 across seating and have passengers complaining.
These type of aircraft typically fly long haul routes of 10 to 13 hours.

To increase comfort, in line with the demands of some on this forum, an airline could increase the pitch to 34 inch and go to 9 across seating. This would result in more civilized seating arrangements, but also in about 18% lower revenue, so prices will have to go up by that percentage.
With the same cabin staff there would also be more room for improved service on board.

Would you be flying this airline at a higher cost or still take the cattle transporter? Or simply: are you willing to pay for comfort?

[IanFromHKG]

I would be willing to pay more for comfort, Edski777, and frequently do. Recently we started flying economy short-haul within Asia because we didn’t see the premium for business class as being worth the difference in product, in many cases. Only last week we flew between here and Bali (almost five hours) in regional economy. Now admittedly regional economy on CX isn’t exactly slumming it – PTVs with AVOD, hot meal with choice of entrees, several drinks runs during the flight – but we could also have done the same flight on a LCC for much less but chose not to do so. Granted, part of that was the lounge access we have as FFs with CX, partly the mileage accrual, partly the timings, but a certain degree of comfort was (for us) an absolute requirement and one we were prepared to pay for.

Sadly, the European market seems to be heading towards the bottom, led by Ryanair and others, and even more sadly dragging down the legacy airlines towards their level. Many posters on here, and I include myself in this number, are fortunate enough (or perhaps cursed enough by their work travel requirements) that they have a better understanding of what is on offer, have a greater level of disposable income than average, and as a result are able to make a more informed decision about value for money and what their leisure (and to a lesser extent business) travel priorities are. The average British holidaymaker seems to be more focused on getting good headline rates, perhaps forgetting along the way the additional charges, hassle, and other disadvantages that go with a no-frills airline. I have voiced before the lingering thoughts I have that perhaps a truly premium airline would be able to make a go of it in Europe. I am not convinced that any airline in recent times has really tried – instead, they seem to offer a marginally better product and indulge in negative marketing (fly with us and you don’t have to pay for booze like you do with X, don’t have to pay for baggage like you do with Y, etc etc). The reality is that the differences are so marginal in many cases – and becoming more marginal all the time as legacy carriers reduce legroom (see, I am on topic!!), service levels, catering, baggage allowances etc – that I can entirely understand why people think that they might as well sacrifice a small part of that residual comfort for a lower fare (“if it’s going to be crap anyway, I might as well get the cheapest crap I can”). I would be much happier if they went in the opposite direction – but then I don’t have to run the airline!

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