[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Guest Poster – Great insight

On the rumour of VS switching to Abu Dhabi then it is entirely plausible. It won’t have a huge impact on VS Holidays as those going to the Jumeirah area (a large proportion of there customers on package holidays) can get to Jumeirah in about the same time from AUH as from DXB (and sometimes quicker if traffic is bad in DXB). Also with further development in the Jebel Ali area then flying to AUH if equally as good as DXB.

With VS Australia (VA) flying into AUH it makes sense and would give VS a 2nd route to Australia with the current offering via HKG (and maybe HKG-SYD will be dropped with VA to AUH and VS to LHR being the preferred route). With VS struggling financially this could make good sense. I don’t know how well the SYD route is doing for VS in terms of yields as not privy to this information, but I guess dropping HKG to SYD would be a good cost saving if the route/yield is struggling.

Also AUH is growing as a destination in its own right and is underserved in comparison to DXB, so it could be a clever switch.

[BritFlier]

Yet DXB is also the second largest O&D out of London. There are strategic reasons to fly there including the network contribution through other route connections / corporate network deals, that AUH doesn’t have.

And VA wouldn’t ‘give’ VS a second route to Australia – partnerships don’t make money unless profit sharing is in place to ensure both companies don’t just defend their own yields with poor SPA rates.

Remember any route decision is never made on a standalone basis, but compared to other options of development for that aircraft/slot. If there’s nothing better to do, then it if best to keep flying, even if unprofitable. (Unless it’s cash negative, when it’s then better to park the aircraft… although then you lose the slot…etc!)

[rferguson]

BritFlier I only reported what was reported to me by a VS staff member.

In fairness, none of the points you raise about the DXB route makes it either viable of profitable. BA’s flights to DXB are constantly full – how many of them are using their Avios points to fly CW I can only imagine.

I can understand that for a large network airline some routes while loss making themselves offer a benefit to the overall network in terms of connections and what not. But VS doesn’t fall into this category, bar the couple routes that ‘Little Red’ flies.

Why would VS chose to fly to AUH over DXB?

1. Because of it’s proximity to DXB
2. Because instead of trying to compete with a single Airbus flight a day versus 5 x EK A380’s a day and 2 x BA flights per day they will be able to operate in co-operation with EY.
3. Their sister airline flies into AUH from Australia after recently entering an agreement with EY.
4. VS not being part of an alliance needs to enter strategic partnerships instead. A partnership with EY would give it access to a huge amount of far east destinations.
5. Why would KLM decide to increase capacity to AUH and reduce DXB? Why would Air Berlin chose to fly to AUH over DXB? Because the strategic partnership with EY is more beneficial to them than selling holidays to Benidorm in the East.

None of this may come to fruition and indeed it may just be a baseless rumor. But the benefits to fly to AUH are definitely there.

[sparkyflier]

Re LHR-DXB, there are many EK/QF flights, but as long as VS can attract its own niche I reckon it can hold its own. Their schedules seem well timed, especially with the daylight, mid morning return flight.

Re the Sydney aspect, well Virgin Atlantic and Australia are separate airlines, with different products, and as I understand it, does OK, including on the HK-SYD part. The trouble with that routing however is there is lots of demand for the LHR-HK flight, but some of that cannot be sold due to the SYD traffic.There used to be a LHR-HK standalone flight but this was removed around the start of the financial crisis.

90s Virgin were a truly superb and surely one of the best airlines in the world then. I flew with them to IAD, HK, JFK, ATH (!) and in the 00s many Caribbean destinations. There has been a decline of no doubt, and their cost cutting will not have helped the product or morale, but it is not all bad – a colleague of mine flew to EWR the other week on VS in Premium Economy, and had great flights! I recall however he preferred the 747 to the 330-300 by a mile, which is interesting.

Their herringbone seating I do not find attractive, and I think they should have gone to a more DL/LX style product.

I think joining Skyteam would be a huge help for VS, and make them far more attarctive to frequent flyers wanting miles and tier points.Think of all the extra destinations they could offer. I think VS joining Skyteam would be of concern to BA Mngt.

Guest_Poster: welcome to the forum and thank you for your insight. Stay with us!

Big Dog: Was your attack on VK earlier in this thread really necessary? The forum was having a reasonable discussion, and VK made a point about A340s taking seemingly ages to get to cruising attitude ( which I find as well), and your post was not in context of the discussion, personal, and in this case unnecessary.

We all know you do not “like” him, but do you really need to go for him so often? We know he is very favourable to BA and opinionated, but can very helpful indeed. I do not agree with many things he comments on, but he does help and does add.

Back on topic, the Delta alliance can only help, and I really hope VS prosper again. Things are moving in their favour, for example, more fuel efficient aircraft to fly, which will make a difference. They do need to be more consistent though and avoid scaring people off.

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

On the DXB point – EK effectively have 8 services a day from London when you add the 3 from Gatwick (with EK15/16 likely to be an A380 in the next few months – another strong rumour!). Add that to the 8 daily regional flights they offer plus Royal Brunei, QANTAS and BA frequencies to DXB and you have a massively saturated market.

When checking availability for VS on this route they are almost always offering the cheapest fares for any class of travel, unless coinciding with an event taking place in DXB. Unlike EK who often sell higher margin fares and have the traffic coming through from other points to sustain these levels of services. VS on the other hand have no feed traffic, whereas AUH gives them much more potential through points already made.

Yes it is rumour about the route being dropped, and AUH is a rumour to replace it (it may be dropped and AUH may not replace it!), but there is a lot of logic to it.

Considering VA and VS work closely already with VS to Australia and then VA serving onwards Australian connections, it is not as though they are starting a relationship from scratch. If HKG-SYD and LHR-DXB are losing a lot of cash then it to me it does make sense to drop these and go LHR-AUH when your sister airline offers AUH-SYD.

[VintageKrug]

It’s difficult to an “out” for Virgin, even with Delta supporting it.

They lack the scale to make a go of it globally, their brand is strong, but quite localised (Asia/South America completely off the radar) and crucially within Europe they cannot leverage a feeder network.

The major asset is its slot portfolio at Heathrow; that asset will diminish whenever runway expansion finally arrives, be it at Heathrow or a hub sited elsewhere.

VS is increasingly looking like the next bmi. Make hay while the sun shines!

[MarcusUK]

KLM and Etihad have indeed signed a 10 year agreement of co-operation.
Etihad have now started (so far), with just one flight in the eve AMS – AUH, KLM flight in the morning.

Skyteam, KLM and AF especially are planning to pass more through AUH as a hub for their passengers, for the Australasia Region, and the plans are to increase these flights.
I am unsure about cutting back on DXB, but from using the AF A380, and a 772 overnight, is now a 773 and once daily, with a KLM 772 from AMS.

So one flight has been cut out already by AF, and both operate at the same time of day.

Ot seems inevitable, that VS would carry for its Brand through AUH, and work with closer ties to Skyteam, especially AF /KLM and with Delta.
But Etihad in the picture, they gain much influence once they have gained shares, and clearly they change the strategy of the other Airline to complement their own. They also have a significant share of Virgin Australia.

So it can be clearly seen, Etihad will call the shots here. The only hope of creating an alternative Emirate Hub, would be through AUH, and they are all lining up in as mentioned, to do just that.

[Bath_VIP]

I will be flying on VS for the first time in 5 years on Weds so I will be interested to see whether things have changed.

VK, I think I agree with you that VS could be the next BMI and suffer a slow death. For me it is the lack of a feeder network that is the biggest issue. However, unlike BMI, I think Virgin have a strategic alternative.

Their brand may not be the strongest in business travel but it is a strong brand in long haul leisure & holiday traffic. I think there is a case for Virgin to consider selling its Heathrow slots and using the proceeds to fund expansion out of Gatwick, Manchester & Glasgow as a long haul leisure operator. An advantage of such routes is that they needn’t be daily in frequency as opposed to business routes where daily frequency is almost essential with all the costs that come with that.

Obviously, this will feel like a defeat for Virgin and I can imagine Branson being emotionally unable to make this decision. But if a slow death awaits Virgin then maybe this needs to be considered.

I would be interested to hear people’s thoughts on this.

[Cloud-9]

i have flown just once on VF, at the time time they were hyping their PE to be ‘in the top one’.

I flew PE LHR/MIA and it was the worst I had ever experienced. IFE did not work, CSD very rude, grdugingly offerd £25 to spend on board or a DVD to watch. When I refused the DVD he also withdrew the £25 and demied ever having offered it! I got the impression he would have thrown me off the plane if he had been able to. He also accused me of wasting four hours of the crew’s time [four hours had elapsed between my reporting the problem to the time he made time to see me].

The toilets were filthy, as – unlike BA PE – they were shared with Economy pax.
I wrote to them upon my return home, and told them their ads needed changing as I considered their PE was ‘in the bottom one’, as opposed to the top. The ad never appeared again..! – so can only assume they received many complaints.

One flight was more than enough.

[VintageKrug]

This is what Premium Economy can be:

http://u.slimg.com/smartertravel/gallery/285/originals/stm50a3e516382d120121114.jpg

[Shearer]

I only have my own experiences to go on, which is 9 flights with Virgin. All have been more than satisfactory. And the same with BA and easyJet etc.

You can have a bad flight with any airline.

[Author]

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