Finnair and the EU261 dodge.

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This topic contains 60 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  MartynSinclair 31 Mar 2018
at 15:36
.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 61 total)

  • rferguson
    Participant

    Yes exactly FDOS. I’ve been furiously googling and have found a case that sets a precedent for airlines claiming knock on delays due to a previous extraordinary circumstance.

    http://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?language=en&num=C-294/10

    The above case ruled in favour of the claimants as the court deemed ‘…an airline can be required to organise its resources in good time so that it can operate its scheduled flight once extraordinary circumstances have ceased…..in particular the air carrier should provide for a certain reserve time to operate the series of flights in their entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end….the available resources will generally be higher at its home base compared to outbound stations….’

    Although an ATC delay to a sector the day previous may be outside Finnairs control their ability to reorganise their resources in HEL was within their control and they had plenty of time to at least attempt to do so. This could have been in the form of subbing an aircraft on the HEL-LHR run or as simple as securing me a reroute.


    FDOS_UK
    Participant

    Absolutely agree.


    rferguson
    Participant

    FDOS I actually just had a chat with ‘Bott and co’ using their online chat facility. In their opinion an ATC delay on a case by case basis could be classed as an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ but not when it happened the day previous to my own flight.


    FDOS_UK
    Participant

    Yes, I’d agree with them. It’s an extraordinary occurence if it happens to the flight you are on (or even to a flight arriving at an outstation and forming the return), but the day before and via their main base is pushing it a bit 😉


    lostantipod
    Participant

    Finnair mastered turning a deaf ear to EU261 requests long before BA, the current reigning champion of EU261 claim-dodging. Whereas BA showed its digital skills by investing in technology, in the form of a pre-scripted email to claimants (often with obvious mistakes in it), Finnair just refused to answer email, snail mail, or phone calls.

    I took a couple of the super-cheap AY J fares to Asia and Australia …maybe 5 years ago. Delays on every trip, missed connections, lost bags, damaged bag, replacement bag used on return damaged as well (Samsonite handle bent – not some cheap crap). And a total deaf ear to EU261 from AY. So I stopped using them and haven’t since.

    Like BA, they clearly still dont give a toss. Shame, as I was on the verge of trying the A350, as I have a trip to HKG next month… dont think I’ll bother with AY now.

    By the way – Which magazine in the UK is running a campaign to get airlines (at least in the UK) to automatically pay EU261 without a claim being lodged. Please support it. (disclaimer: i have no relationship to Which).


    capetonianm
    Participant

    ……… just refused to answer email, snail mail, or phone calls.

    If you wrote them a ‘letter before action’ telling them that you were going to sue them in the County Court, and they ignored that, and you went ahead, and they didn’t contest it, presumably you would get a default judgment.


    FDOS_UK
    Participant

    ……… just refused to answer email, snail mail, or phone calls.

    If you wrote them a ‘letter before action’ telling them that you were going to sue them in the County Court, and they ignored that, and you went ahead, and they didn’t contest it, presumably you would get a default judgment.

    But not for cases where the jurisdiction is Finnish law, as they don’t have an effective small claims system.


    capetonianm
    Participant

    I think the original complaint was related to a journey originated in UK and thus would fall under UK jurisdiction, as is the case with mine against Lufthansa, journey started and ended in UK.


    1nfrequent
    Participant

    Ferguson – I wouldn’t bother with the CAA but go straight to small claims court. I’m a bit confused by some of the posts here – was the ATC delay claimed that in Chinese airspace or are they saying that it was LHR ATC that caused the daly? Because if it was the Chinese delay earlier, I don’t see how they can rely on that for the LHR-HEl flight you took as it would have been AY’s responsibility to rota another plane. If it was that they missed an LHR slot then again, that’s within their control if the reason they missed it was due to the too tight then again that’s AY’s problem.

    I offer that up for whatever it’s worth. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood anything (too hot and too many g and ts …)

    1F


    rferguson
    Participant

    Hi folks.

    I have lodged a claim with the CAA but will also send a ‘pre action protocol’ letter to Finnair at the same time with a request that they reply within 28 days.

    Then I plan on lodging a claim with the english Small Claims Court. The only issue i’m experiencing currently is the claim has to be served to an address in england. I am getting a variety of different physical addresses for Finnair when googling. I called Finnair Customer Services who said they do not have a physical UK address. So i’m not sure how I will proceed with that aspect.

    My claim is simple – the ATC delay did not apply to my flight, nor the inbound flight to LHR. It occurred the day before, three sectors previous to my flight. Finnair has a duty under EU261 ‘to prove that the delay or cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken’. I am applying this to MY flight. Not a flight the day before on a different continent. I can accept that an ATC delay ex HKG is possibly ‘extraordinary’ for the passengers on board that flight. My flight was the following day on the same aircraft. I think Finnair will have difficulty proving that ‘all reasonable measures had been taken’ to avoid my delay. The delayed aircraft ex HKG was flying into its home hub, Helsinki, which is where not only are the physical resources available (crews/aircraft) but also the back office resources. My fight was 10:20am Friday morning. By Thursday afternoon UK time Finnair knew my flight would be delayed. It had my phone number and email address. It made no effort to contact me, provide a reroute or secure a seat on an earlier flight that would have avoided the four hour five minute delay. It took zero measure let alone ‘all reasonable measures’.

    1nfrequent – Finnair in their rejection were not specific at all about where the ATC delay occurred (or when). I just received a general refusal based on ‘extraordinary circumstances – ATC delay’. However I used the internet to track my aircraft and its prior flights and was able to ascertain that:
    – the aircraft arrived into LHR 53 minutes late from HEL.
    – en route to LHR it had departed HEL 1hr5min late.
    – it had arrived in HEL that morning from HKG 1hr46min late.
    – it departed HKG the previous day 2hr5min late (where the ATC delay occurred)
    – it had arrived in HKG from HEL more or less in time.
    Just to clarify….the aircraft had NO ATC delay issues either departing Helsinki, inbound to LHR, out of LHR or into HEL.

    lostantipod – it’s funny you mention how dire they are. I was recounting my experience to a Finnish friend who works for BA. She said ‘Finnair is under new management for the past few years – they make Alex Cruz look like a pussycat’.


    capetonianm
    Participant

    This site might be useful to anyone who claims against an airline for a delay and they use WX as the reason for the delay. It enables you to establish conditions from METARs at any airport at any time and may be useful ammunition.


    ImissConcorde
    Participant

    Perhaps this would suffice as a U.K. address?
    Finnair Mayfair, London office address: 27 Albermarle St, Mayfair, London,
    W1S 4BQ.

    It’s not a sales/ticket office so more likely to be administrative.


    mkcol74
    Participant

    Which site @capetonianm I’m a little confused!


    capetonianm
    Participant

    Sorry in my posting at 1244 I forgot to add the URL of the site I referred to :
    http://www.ogimet.com/index.phtml.en


    IanFromHKG
    Participant

    rferguson, sorry to give such a late reply to your post and the conundrum you face(d).

    All overseas company which have a place of business in the UK are required to register under the Companies Act 1985 and have a registered address. Under section 1139(2) of the Companies Act, a document may be served on an overseas company whose particulars are registered at the Companies Registry:

    (a) by leaving it at, or sending it by post to, the registered address of any person resident in the United Kingdom who is authorised to accept service of documents on the company’s behalf (you can find this out by doing a company search), or

    (b) if there is no such person, by leaving it at or sending by post to any place of business of the company in the United Kingdom.

    Furthermore, for High Court proceedings, the Civil Procedure Rules (6.9(2) paragraph 7) permit service on “any place of business of the company within the jurisdiction (such as, for instance, their check-in desk at an airport).

    In addition, by law, the overseas company must state the following particulars on all business letters, order forms and websites that are used in carrying on business in the UK:
    • where the establishment is registered
    • its registered number

    That gives you a few routes to follow!

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