[Ahmad]

Couldn’t agree with you more, politeness is now taken as some sort of weakness and an invitation to be trampled upon. Having said that, being courteous but firm and insistent certainly helps resolve matters more than being loud and rude. But in my experience it depends largely on the culture of the place and the background of the person concerned. In some places and with some people (a dwindling minority) just a polite request will do and in other places nothing short of reading the riot act will yield the desired result.

[AnthonyDunn]

@ TiredOldHack – 11/08/2014 12:32 GMT

+1

[LuganoPirate]

ToH +1

[jsn55]

So true, TOH, my life has been very pleasant because I am. I agree, there are times … as when EgyptAir in Cairo “lost” our upgrades on a 3-class plane. After 30 minutes of “conversation” I smashed my fist down on his counter and yelled something. Since I am female, 6′ and blonde, this had quite an affect on the boys behind the podium. My husband and I ended up with 3 seats on the bulkhead in biz with the middle seat blocked and what appeared to be our personal steward. Quite a pleasant flight back to JFK.

[DavidGordon10]

Well, on the good manners question, what do others think of this? On the tube, not on the plane or at the airport, but the same principles apply.

Last week I boarded a Northern Line train at Belsize Park, just to get to Euston. The carriage had every seat occupied and a few standing – but about 20 of the seats were occupied, one to the seat, by boys, I would guess about 5 or 6 years old. They were clearly a party travelling together, under the charge of three or four young women.

I, and another passenger of about my age (late sixties), remonstrated with one of the women in charge. When I was a boy, it was unthinkable to sit on a train or a bus if an adult was standing. If young children do not learn good manners and sensible attitudes towards those who are much older, then as older children and young adults they cannot expect suddenly to gain good manners. In Copenhagen, where I work, school parties always stand to allow adults to sit. They learn how to cope when the bus or train accelerates or brakes. Finally, we explained to the young carer that in the event of a fall, my femur (or that of the lady who was arguing on my side) was much more likely to break (and with more severe consequences) than that of a five-year old.

No success. She was in charge of the “safety” of her party, and they would stay sitting.

I despair. How can you deal with such ill-mannered stupidity?

[LuganoPirate]

You can’t deal with it David, it’s a part of life nowadays mores the pity. If I didn’t give up my seat to a lady on the train when I was young my parents would tell me off and I’d get a clipped ear to boot so next time I wouldn’t forget!

I think women’s lib did it for giving up seats, then throw in a mix of health and safety, political correctness and lack of discipline and you have the perfect storm.

[Goldielox]

David, how horrible. Usually the end seat on each bank of chairs in a carriage is reserved for elderly, disabled or pregnant passengers and this is shown by the sticker on the window. If any person was sat in that seat you or your companion would have had priority.

[SimonS1]

David – frustrating maybe but I don’t consider it “ill mannered stupidity”.

I travelled into London about 2 months ago from the south coast with one of my kids. My peak time ticket was £36 return and his £18. Despite several people giving us the look I didn’t stand and nor did he. We paid for the tickets and on that basis we were entitled to be sitting. What happened in my Grandad’s generation isn’t really relevant these days, as frankly I would otherwise be giving up my seat every time I travelled.

As for the people in your example the carers were likely under a duty of care. You might not agree with the H&S culture but that does not automatically make those involved ill mannered or stupid.

In my experience 95% of journeys on the tube require standing up, not the best way to travel if your sensitivities are easily offended.

[TiredOldHack]

In China, in June, my Comely Young Minder and I took a bus ride. There was a spare seat (a miracle in itself). I gestured to CYM that she should take it.

She insisted I take it. I refused.

“You in China now. You follow Chinese customs!”

“Me English. I follow English customs…”

“No, in China, young people show respect for the….”

And then her eyes widened and she clapped her hand over her mouth. I utterly creased up. One of those rites of passage. In China, I am officially Old. CYM was so worried she’d offended me, but the fact that I was still chuckling five minutes later allayed her fears…

[Charles-P]

Of course politeness can backfire.

My son gave up his seat on a train to a woman and when she thanked him he said,
“I would not be comfortable seeing a pregnant woman stand”
Long hard stare back followed by her hissing,
“I am NOT pregnant”

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Hi David

I understand your point – but I also agree with SimonS1. One of my best friends is a teacher and the hassle now of taking anyone out if school is an utter nightmare with all sorts of risk assessments having to be made and policies to follow. One of those no doubt would be travelling on public transport and ensuring everyone is sat down so as to reduce risk of being injured in the event of a sudden stop. If a child was injured in such a way sadly in this day and age the school would face legal action – as well as possibly the teacher if they could have be shown to be negligent and teacher / carer could lose there job. So in this case whilst I totally understand your point, you would be wrong to remonstrate with a teacher / carer. This is not to say I agree with the way things work – I think it is crazy and wrong and young children should be taught courtesy and manners and I can’t stand the H&S world we live in.

I almost always give up a seat when the situation is right. I have moved tables on intercity trains to ensure families can sit together. I have moved and stood even when feeling terribly ill as no one else would be kind enough to offer seat (I was willing someone to be nice) and I have to done the Charles-p line, mistakenly thinking someone was pregnant. But it always makes you feel good when you do a good turn (I’m sure I’ve read it makes people feel better). Maybe this could be better taught to youngsters – how it makes you feel when you do something nice for someone without any form of recompense.

[DavidGordon10]

Thank you everyone, interesting comments. Simon, obviously you and I disagree …. but presumably the people “giving you the look” had also paid for their tickets? And so equally “entitled to be sitting”?

I don’t think the “duty of care” to a party of school age children can include a duty to ensure that they are seated on the tube. Any tube journey can involve standing.

I can enpathise with ToH. I used to work in Baku, and used the metro to get to the office. Age trumps gender in Azeri culture, and there is something disconcerting about an entire metro carriage leaping to its feet as you get on (maybe I actually am that old, but I like to think it is just the silver hair from years as a medical school dean). A nice feature was the pleasure that the locals had at seeing a foreigner using their metro.

[Charles-P]

‘TimFitzgeraldTC’ – the H&S demands for school trips are frankly ludicrous in most cases. My two youngest are at school in Belgium and my wife had to recently complete a pre-trip medical form that required us to provide the dates and cause of death of all grandparents. The reason being that this would allow teachers and medical staff to identify any genetic predispositions that may affect the child on the trip !

I have been told that my suggestion of introducing rugby to the list of sports at my son’s school in Belgium has “no chance whatsoever of succeeding” as the Flanders Educational Council regards rugby as “too dangerous”. This despite the fact that many of the boys attending the school already play at a private club nearby.

I am tired of hearing the well worn statement “safety is our first priority” when quite clearly it isn’t. As was pointed out by the late great Jeffrey Bernard many years ago,

“If safety is such a concern of the airline industry why on earth do they allow people to fly around in aircraft, I mean any fool can see that is just dangerous”

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Hi David

I think the duty of care for a school trip would be to ensure all reasonable steps are taken to get everyone to sit down where seats are available. Failing that to hold on to a rail where possible. I doubt that once a seat has been acquired that it is supposed to be given up to someone else.

I don’t agree with it – but I think this is the process that sadly a teacher has to follow. Where a more needy person might need a seat common sense goes out of the window. Having heard first hand what my friend has to go through for DofE and other school trips you wonder why they bother taking kids out of school. I have heard of teachers losing jobs over ridiculous incidents – but they didn’t follow the rule book / policy.

So I do agree with you and I find it sad we live in a world like this – but I also disagree with you if that makes sense.

[TiredOldHack]

We used to have a policy at work – teenagers on work experience, yes, all comers, everyone welcome. I do know at least two, maybe three, teens I’ve mentored (two girls, one lad) who were mad keen on being journalists, and who clearly loved what they were doing with us – which wasn’t making tea and filing.

And so a few years ago, when I fielded another request, I just said “Sure”, and chucked the correspondence to HR for processing. And got the reply:

“Oh, no, we don’t do this any more.”

“Erm… why not? And nobody told me….”

Turns out it’s because of the new Perv Checks, or whatever they call them. It’s just too much hassle. Believe it or not, someone from the this applicant’s (it was a bloke this time) local council had to come and interview me to make sure I wasn’t going to assault this 16 year-old in the khazi, or whatever.

Anyway, I dug my heels in, said I thought that we should maintain our open-door policy, and was told that if I wanted to do all the bureaucracy, then I was welcome. So I did, and was duly declared not to be a threat to this young lad’s virtue, and a very bright young lad he was, too.

I am getting a trifle irritated by this sort of hysteria.

[Author]

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