[Anonymous]

[MarcusUK]

Thankfully no fatalities or serious injuries, but several different photos show the rear of the plane, snapped apart.

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2013/4/13/55228/5727/travel/A+Lion+Air+737+Goes+for+an+Accidental+Swim+in+Bali+%28Crash+Photos+and+Details%29

Bali is a dodgy runway, not the longest, opening onto the sea. Planes frequently have to use reverse engine thrust and brake harshly. Take off’s are usually high powered and rapid.

I had a near miss on an old Garuda 747 some years ago, skidding sidewards to avoid going off the runway into the sea!

Hope all crew and passengers recover ok. There are many people flying into Bali worldwide.

[Edski777]

Why is the runway at DPS (Denpasar Bali airport) dodgy? There is quite a lot of traffic and very few mishaps.
I’d focus on Lion Air as they are blacklisted in the EU and by the looks of it for good reason. Despite having brand new planes and landing at an international airport with good facilities they missed the runway. From the looks of it they didn’t overshoot, but came in short and landed in the sea.
I love the country and have been there many times. Even flying to remote destinations within the archipelago, but the quality and safetyrecords are questionable for many of the local airlines.

I too hope that nobody was badly injured and will fully recover, but a warning to all is justified. As is, in my opinion, the blacklisting.

[FormerlyDoS]

Shades of this incident

http://www.dc-8jet.com/0-unsinkable-dc8.htm

Except the Diesel 8 was made of stern stuff and flew again, after repair.

[Bucksnet]

The linked story now confirms that there was no overshoot. The plane landed short, so on the water missing the start of the runway.

The plane is only 2 months old, so probably pilot error. They don’t have a good safety record, and this makes it worse.

[FormerlyDoS]

Two month old planes can suffer catastrophic failures, too, will be interesting to see what the report says.

Perhaps there was a black ops sub in the area?

[Edski777]

Lion Air has been operating since 2000 and has had 6 major incidents since then. A bit much in my opinion.

When in Indonesia, be careful who you fly with.

[MarcusUK]

Hi All…When the news came through this was what was being stated, overshooting in whatever form meant it had gone off the end of the runway…for whatever reason.

Think we all know the ?? records of some regions in The World, are where you need specifically extra caution.
In Asia, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, China.
In Africa and South America – with smaller or low cost carriers this would be the same, as also in India, and that region.

KLM have services AMS – SIN then onto Bali, and tend to use them with a good sturdy 773.

Low Cost carriers are plenty in Asia, with Jetstar and AirAsia being the largest and safer in my view, with a newish fleet well kept.
Lots of the Main carriers like MH TG, have had to reduce their fares, so even then i would take a major non low-cost Airline.

It is not always the state of the aircraft, but the pressure on cutting costs, staff working excessive hours, and pilots pushed to the limit, for profit that concerns me. Some use small fleets of older aircraft or turbo props., which for local weather and geography are not the best to fly.
I would pay a little more knowing that crew and Aircraft are better kept!

Domestic and intra-Asian fares have reduced in recent years, and often fares are the same on the full service Airlines. MH have terrific regional and domestic fares, often on overall cost, are cheaper than Low cost carrier Air Asia, so i use them often. (EG fare for 2 Ex KUL – BKK £ under 100 total!)

[SimonS1]

Marcus UK

“Lion Air overshoots runways into sea”

The fastest report is not usually the most accurate.

“Planes frequently have to …..break harshly.”

The one yesterday certainly broke sharply. About halfway down the fuselage.

“Bali is a dodgy runway, not the longest, opening onto the sea”

Really? How many incidents have there been there in recent times? None that I can remember despite around 100,000 aircraft movements a year. Scary stuff.

“no fatalities or serious injuries”

Just a few leg breaks here and there.

“Think we all know the ?? records of some regions in The World, are where you need specifically extra caution.”

?? Indeed

“tend to use them with a good sturdy 773.”

Are you saying the 737 isn’t sturdy? I thought it was the workhorse of the fleet. In any case wouldn’t a 773 need a longer runway, and your point was it was short and dodgy??

” largest and safer in my view, with a newish fleet well kept”

The plane yesterday was almost brand new.

“Some use small fleets of older aircraft “

The BA 737 fleet at LGW is I believe over 20 years old on average. Doesn’t make them unsafe.

Sorry to say I am struggling to grasp what you are going on about but if journalism is your thing I am sure The Sun would offer you something.

[Binman62]

I have used DPS frequently and there is nothing wrong with the runway. Indeed SFO, HKG, KIX and many others have runways stretching out to sea.

I have no idea what happened and given I was in the air at the time, there but for the grace of God.

Glad everyone got off.

[Bucksnet]

FDos, in the past I have respected your posts but your attempt at humour is tasteless. This incident could of been very serious, however there were no deaths reported. I hope none of the survivors are injured too badly.

[PegasusAir]

Is there some confusion here – recent reports are that the aircraft undershot the runway which is much more serious than overshooting.
I know because at 0030 this morning the A320 I was on overshot from about 50 ft (quite low). Quite safe and a regularly practised procedure whereas undershooting is not safe – at best you hit the grass and/or the approach lights but at worst…! In other words you land short. Runways with approaches over the sea are usually much safer (obviously) other than for some wind disturbance where the sea hits the land – there are thousands around the world that are safe and often much shorter runways than Denpasar.

[MarcusUK]

A more detailed report amongst many has been issued, supporting the points I have made earlier. Clearly, limited information is available at the start of an incident.
This was to start some sensible discussion earlier today. And to make aware for BT forum readers. Bali is a popular destination for all.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/04/13/indonesia-bali-plane.html

“Indonesia is one of Asia’s most rapidly expanding airline markets, but is struggling to provide qualified pilots, mechanics, air traffic controllers and updated airport technology to ensure safety
The airline has been involved in six accidents since 2002, four of them involving Boeing 737s and one resulting in 25 deaths, according to the Aviation Safety Network’s website.

Lion Air is currently banned from flying to Europe due to broader safety lapses in the Indonesian airline industry that have long plagued the country.”

I am sure BA’s old 737’s do not run their pilots or crew over the maximum hours with European safety standards. Not having these the same in Asia, they do.
ATR72’s of 25+ yrs old fly in and out of Bali, as some small older aircraft.
But this seems clearly to be a pilot error, unsurprising as detailed in the report above, employing the inexperienced or pushing crews to work too heavily in hours. Accidents will occur.

I have flown in and out of Bali many times, and all have been maximum reverse thrust on landing with little runway left ahead. One 747 had to turn and skid sidewards, so we stopped abruptly left side towards the sea. We were no more than 10 metres at the end of the runway.
Take off’s have maximum thrust, and the runway bangs the plane as the rather patchwork runway is full of bumps and was not the best condition.
I also know someone that lives there, and these rapid and dramatic landings are common, he flies weekly in and out of Bali. Thankfully, these incidents of overrun into the sea are not. He confirms often the runway causes planes to bang around, and the runway is not the best smooth surface that exists.

Low cost Airlines like Air Asia and Jetstar i trust. Smaller Airlines pushing crews with old poorly maintained aircraft new or not, i do not. Lion Air may have new planes but it does not mean they fly safely or operate them safely. The article attached clearly supports my comments with facts.
Sorry if simons1 does not like them.

Yes, there are established areas around the world, as detailed and mentioned by BT forum members as well as the BT Journalists, where caution is needed in terms of safety. Clearly a more modern larger aircraft is safer, as long as its crew are experienced, well trained, and not worked to exhaustion. These have featured in many articles over the years.
I have travelled to over 60 countries so have been able to witness and experience the differences in regional standards, over 25 years of flying.

A Daily Mail article from a quick internet search… but one with some insightful photos of the runway, island and plane location..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308475/Bali-plane-crash-Miracle-escape-108-passengers-plane-crashes-sea-attempts-land-Bali.html

Yet again the forum descends into not very bright sarcasm, and hardly the comments an intelligent business traveller would make on the issue! In Real life business, attitudes like this and unprofessional comments would not be reasonable, normal or tolerated.

Everyone is entitled to their view, but it need not descend so low as to need to make such comments. That is really not a sign of good communication skills, or basic business competence!

[SimonS1]

Marcus UK

“But this seems clearly to be a pilot error, unsurprising as detailed in the report above, employing the inexperienced or pushing crews to work too heavily in hours”

Not sure what your accident investigation credentials are, but at this stage it hasn’t been determined whether it was pilot error or some technical problem (or even weather event) that caused the plane to come down short.

My earlier post was to illustrate that your comments were just clutching at straws. Dodgy runway? Old planes? Overworked crews? All we have to go on is Lion’s less than exemplary safety record.

For example what evidence do you have to suggest the runway at Bali is in any way “dodgy” (your wording, not mine)? Your friend told you it was a bit bumpy? If a 747 skidded sideways to within 10 metres of the end of the runway that would presumably generate some form of incident report? However if would appear to me that Bali has a near faultless safety record.

And why is a 773 “sturdy” whereas you appear to be suggesting a 737 is not?

And what has the age of fleet got to do with it if the plane that crashed was brand new?

The article you quoted doesn’t support your comments with facts, basically all it says in true newspaper fashion is Lion has a poor safety record but the cause of the crash is unknown. It makes no reference to your “dodgy” runway for example.

I agree with your last paragraph, the best way to start a sensible debate is a sensible post based on the facts not a rag bag of entirely speculative comments. As it was you didn’t even get the basics of what happened right (look at the header – it was an undershoot not an overshoot).

[MarcusUK]

Try going to some of the places you comment on, look at the aircraft that fly in there. I will state what i experience as will colleagues or friends that i know, when we have actually been there.
Then you can have some facts.

I have flown in/out of there 6 times last year, and the runway was in a poor state, and on the 777-300ER of KLM, it was far from a smooth runway, looking down it had different shades of materials and was far from well maintained.. The crew said mostly there, that the lockers often fly open on take offs and landings at CDG!
I experienced this numerous times, numerous Airlines.
they do have to power up very quickly for rapid take off, and reverse thrust and brake very hard, especially larger aircraft.

They do not report these incidents there that often. MY 747 on Garuda some years ago, merely taxied on back to the gate after ending sideways at the end of the runway. Lockers opened, baggage fell out as we were landing, and the pilot clearly landed too far down the runway. Everyone was quite shocked, even the 42 crew being carried as passengers.

Strange how the Airline is banned by the EU has a very poor safety record, despite the aircraft being new! Running an Airline is not just about how new the aircraft is, clearly.

Anyhow, i have real Business to attend to and one of my 65 flights a year to take, so i will leave you to your armchair perceptions.
I do not buy into these bitching session that seem to be a pastime for some on here, with nothing much to do in real life.

[Author]

Posts