[rferguson]

Ian_from_HKG I think you hit the nail on the head with your post. The benefits of Club Europe are almost weighed in favour of the privileges on the ground than in the air. Especially for the VERY short flights such as CDG/BRU/AMS etc For someone that has no card status lounge access, Fast Track, priority boarding and extra luggage allowance makes the upgrade offer more attractive. But if like you say you already get those perks via card status then the benefits diminish.

A particular market on a certain route (and the competition) will always dictate what the product offered is. I agree, routes like LHR-ATH could do with a more superior product, such as the mid-haul A321’s (it still has converter seating euro product). Moscow has displayed this perfectly. It’s a similar flight time as ATH and also was until recently a ‘euro’ offering. But the market demanded a superior product and were prepared to pay big for it. Hence the reason why there is now a daily four class 747 on the route. Likewise TLV. The israeli’s were furious to see their route ‘downgraded’ to a mid haul A321. After just six months on and a 777 with F is put back on the route.

If we saw the likes of LH/AF/KL installing ‘fixed’ J class cabins I think BA would swiftly follow. But I imagine they are all quite happy with the status quo.

At least they have done away with the 2 x 3 converter seating that they used to have. No ‘middle seat’ issues now.

Oh btw – you were spot on in answering the question on why is a J class fare quoted so much higher than a J class upgrade for same flight. There was someone posting on here some time ago how they booked a eurotraveller ticket then accepted the upgrade option after booking. They thought they would then inherit the J class booking options and when they tried to cancel their booking they were shocked their Y class restrictions still applied. But yes, you are totally right. J class fares on ba.com are flexible. By upgrading after booking you retain the original booking conditions. Which begs the question as to why BA just don’t quote a ‘discounted Club’ fare when searching I guess?

[AnthonyDunn]

@ Ian_from_HKG – 18/09/2013 13:49 GMT

You are entirely right that Europe is not Asia and v.v…. I am pricing an itinerary for next June and CX are quoting a £364 single in Y PEK-HKG for a 3:40 flight (the return is some £670!) whereas, by way of comparison, BA are quoting a return LHR-ATH-LHR in Y at the same time for £276 for flights of around 3:35 each way.

As we are both aware, the PEK-HKG route is entirely cartelised with all fares on CX/KA/CA exactly the same (unsurprising bearing in mind the cross-ownership) and the only alternative is to fly on China Southern or China Eastern with a mid-point connection. And for all of those busily criticising BA for (ha, ha, ha!) operating a monopoly, I would refer them to a recent Lex column in the Financial Times, dated 15 September 2013, discussing Cathay Pacific’s trenchant objections to the HK authorities granting approval to traffic rights to LCC Jetstar Hong Kong. The latter is a partnership of Qantas, China Eastern and HK-based Shun Tak Holdings. As the FT’s Lex observed:

The facts, however, argue that Hong Kong would benefit from a low-cost carrier. Budget airlines offer more than a quarter of the seats available out of Singapore, but only 5 per cent out of Hong Kong, according to the Centre for Aviation.

Cathay offers a superb service but at a price (as demonstrated above) to match – and based upon keeping HKG largely closed to LCCs. Life is so much easier in business if you can simply ensure that the authorities keep your market nicely regulated to keep the competition out – and that, in a nutshell, is how HKG’s civil aviation market has operated for decades: for Cathay Pacific and its shareholders’ benefit. The contrast with BA’s situation ex-London could scarcely be greater.

The non-Lex article “Cathay hits at Qantas and China Eastern” also of 15 September 2013 lays bare CX’s determination to maintain the status quo. For those with FT online access, it is at:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c1463aee-1de5-11e3-a40b-00144feab7de.html#axzz2fG0Uk9h2

[IanFromHKG]

Thanks, rferguson. Always happy to see we are seeing eye to eye since I respect your opinions very much indeed

I have wondered for some time why there is deemed to be insufficient demand for a “proper” business class cabin in Europe. I appreciate that the market is different to that in Asia, and also that the awful euroconverter seats do provide flexibility. However, they don’t provide THAT much flexibility, I understand, since I have heard (and perhaps this is inaccurate) that the seating layout is decided the day before and is maintained for the entire day – presumably encompassing a number of flights. Couldn’t the same object be achieved by shuffling aircraft with different fixed configurations? Perhaps I am talking nonsense, though

However, it is interesting to note that Dragonair – CX’s regional subsidiary – has some planes with just 8 business class seats (two rows of 2×2). I can’t help but think that BA – or indeed another major European airline – that produced such a distinctive cabin could reliably charge a proper premium for it rather than scrabbling around to find 69-quid upgrades. Who knows, the limited supply might push prices even higher!

I know Alex wrote an article on this a while ago and cited some failed examples, but all the same I wonder whether it might work

[Tirana1]

I was on the LHR-IST service in CE a couple of days ago and, having commented to one of the crew about the grotty long haul 767 I had experienced the previous week, was asked to speak with someone from “Product” who was along for the ride, to review the service . I had a pleasant but frank discussion with him, explaining that I actually found the meal and service pretty good but it was hard to match the flat bed seating offered by TK on the route on its A330’s or even the cradle seats on its A321’s. I also pointed out that the decision to close the BA lounge at IST and replace it with a horrid shared lounge was hard to comprehend.

I can see no real answer to the seating issue other than to treat the IST route as long haul since the A321 mid-haul aircraft have too few seats for what is generally a very busy route. However, IST does not support premium traffic in the way DME does .

The reason I have continued to fly BA on the route is that TK’s attitude to safety scares me (and I am a TK gold card holder since I have no choice but to use them in Central Asia) and the cabin crew service is infinitely better on BA. (Indeed, putting me in touch with the guy from Product shows initiative and concern for what customers think that is the hallmark of many crew on BA in my experience.) Most of the time BA CE is also cheaper.

More generally, I have no choice but to work on planes and for space and confidentiality reasons CE gives me the opportunity to do so in a way that economy does not. I think I actually get reasonable value from CE when I travel on business (but no, I wouldn’t spend my own money to do so.)

[Tim2soza]

Ian_from_HKG – I agree.

A A380 WT+ type seat 2×2 with (say) 8-10 rows would command the required premium IMHO.

The new American Airlines First (business) seat (in the non Transcon configs) is an example of a Oneworld airline getting it right for short haul premium. Add WiFi and at seat power to CE, and the passengers will come. Serve proper grub irrespective time of day. A 2 hour sector is a 6 hour trip door to door after all.

Off topic – For the BA detractors, I have just done a round trip in AA London to Dallas in their old First. Yuk! Based on 8 BA First sectors this year in 747’s & new and old 777’s, even on a bad day BA beats AA hands down for hard and soft product. Granted some of the ME and Asian suite products look better than BA, but across the Atlantic, BA has it nailed in First. AA new business class looks great, but the fares to get it are off the scale at the moment.

[lloydah]

If I may add – off post – to your post above Tim2sms, I flew UA this month in Global First for the first time. It was superb. Crew/food/separate airbridge and especially the seats, couldn’t fault them and sadly in my opinion, made the BA offering at £1400 more a poor relation. Not flown AA bus. but have to disagree that BA have nailed it trans Atlantic.

[Tim2soza]

lloydah – I will give UA a look based on your comments. Thank-you very much.

[lloydah]

Hope you’re not disappointed. A lot depends on the crew but the ones I flew with were certainly going the extra mile. Maybe they’ve been reading Flyertalk.

[critical999]

You seem to have got your wires crossed Tarrant, and just for the record I usually only travel first class, and dont suffer fools gladly

[critical999]

What a gay day

[critical999]

My premium service means exactly premium. ie quality which includes
inflght food and service appropriate to premium rates. unfortunately Ba inflight service on euro traveller flightshas become below mediocre and is not acceptable

[critical999]

unfortunately this forum is a waste of space in my opinion because it seems to attract a lot of comments from people who have no social graces etc.

I therefore no longer wish to contribute to this forum

[batraveller2]

I flew outbound to Brussels a few weeks in club and returned in economy. The club europe flight was served very professionally and had a nice salad and with several drinks rounds in the short flight. Equally economy was adequate with a snack and a couple of drinks, Added with the bonus of lounge access, I think that the BA product is certainly adequate for club europe.

[BA4ever]

Personally, I have never felt under-served in economy. Nor I felt that what I was given to eat or drink was inferior to what CE passengers were having. Everything was superb, it was just served in plastic.

[NTarrant]

Farewell Critical99% – Stagecoach do an up market Megabus product so might suit your needs and you might even get a Megabus onesie, which you don’t get in CE

[Author]

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