[Swissdiver]

@Londoncity: An airport tax is not “government imposed”. It is however to be paid anyway… Besides their is the Law, but also the Iata… So we have:
– Government imposed taxes
– Airport taxes
– Fuel surcharges
– Airline fees

In my view, all but the airline fees should be reimbursed when unused…

[MartynSinclair]

SimonS1 – it is a big deal if a company is benefiting from a payment that it was NEVER intended to benefit from. You cant claim “finders keepers, losers weepers”!

Nigel, whether the airlines are required to collect by law or do so voluntarily is largely irrelevant.

[NTarrant]

Martyn I was merely pointing out that it is a legal requirement, not an “agreement” as you had suggested.

I also have to agree with SimonS1 and can’t see what the issue is. Let us suppose that there are no APD, airport charges etc, just the air fare and your fare is £100.00 if you cancel they will charge you £25.00, you get £75.00 back. Are you still unhappy at where the £25.00 comes from?

Or another scenario. Your fare including taxes etc is £300.00 of which £100.00 is taxes etc. You cancel and you are entitled to £100.00 back, but there is an admin charge of £25.00. Of that £100.00, £50.00 is airport taxes and £50.00 is APD which would have gone to HMRC. How do you know that the £25.00 deducted is what would have been paid to HMRC.

If you know the conditions of the ticket you have purchased then what actually is the issue. So what if the airlines are benefiting, you chose that fare and the conditions attached.

[craigwatson]

nicely said NT

Martyn – the airlines arent making like bandits with this. the charge £15 (well in this example it is BA – and 1 particular method) is hardly going to put any extra’s in the coffers, as some of this will be paid to amex/mastercard/visa etc… to do the refund.

So like NT said, is the £15 coming out of the APD, or the security fee, or the airport tax. or any of the other taxes and charges?

[Cedric_Statherby]

Afternoon all – joining this very interesting debate late.

I think the issues fall into two parts: APD, and other charges. With the single exception of APD, all the other charges used to be part of the all-in ticket price, and their separate identification is all about airlines wanting to quote a low (misleadingly low) headline price. I don’t know if this can be stopped: I can’t see any external regulator wanting to take this on, and anyway we don’t want to go back to IATA and governments controlling prices. But when the full service airlines try from time to time to quote a “what you see is what you pay” all-in price, they lose business to the budget airlines who quote a lower headline figure – even if the all-in cost from the budget airlines is higher (and it often is, but Joe Public seems indifferent, or perhaps too stupid to notice).

APD is different, and I cannot understand why airlines abandoned the system of say 10 years ago where one paid APD (or “departure tax” as it was usually known then) at the airport. This ensures only actual travellers pay it, and as it was often paid either in cash at check-in or at a tax window, it was also in passing separated from the ticket price and so from the airline’s accounting system. I would have thought airlines would welcome this: it is easier for them, and makes the true size of the tax on air travel more obvious, which would help them in their campaign to get what they see as an unfair tax on their industry changed.

[Bucksnet]

If there were no taxes & charges just the airfare, then surely you would only get a refund if the ticket class is refundable. I’ve never had to get a refund of a flexible ticket, but I understand you get the whole amount back with no admin fees deducted.

It does not matter what part of the taxes & charges any admin fee comes from, as none of it will be remitted to BAA or HMRC as the flight was not taken.

[AMcWhirter]

Cedric_Statherby, I would imagine that the airlines abandoned the system of paying the departure tax separately at the airport owing to passenger complaints.

Much depends on the airport and destination … but generally airports demanded that passengers paid in local cash and credit/credit cards were not accepted. Passengers complained that they had spent all their local currency or hadn’t sufficient left to pay the departure tax.

If that scenario were applied to busy airports today it would surely result in queuing and less efficient passenger handling. Imagine the sight, at LHR, where families flying long-haul would be counting out 100s of pounds for APD payments.

[RichHI1]

This is all news to me. I book through AA. If I cancel the ticket they refund the the ticket including taxes. If I have a restricted ticket then whatever the penalties are they are assessed but has no effect on taxes.
I know IATA like to call airline member surcharges taxes as they are easier for them to collect but these should be refunded too.
If you enter a sale in the books and charge VAT on it then if that sale is refunded the VAT is refunded too.
If an airline claims a ticket is unrefundable then the VAT is not rfunded as the sale has not been refunded. As with so many of these forums, the bottom line is be very careful buying restricted tickets from BA or other carriers with very strict restrictions and no flexibility in enforcement. These carriers have every right to impose their conditions as you are under no obligation to trade or contract with them.

[MartynSinclair]

Nigel and Craig – the point I am trying to make, but obviously not very well is:

1. I have no real issue about an admin charge for a refund (perhaps I can object to the amount), but the principle that people need to get paid to do a job, I agree with.

2. What I do have an issue with, is what happens to APD / taxes / other payments, being collected by the airline on behalf of other “agencies” and when not claimed, being kept.

I think the public have a right to know how much is involved when these amounts have been paid and passengers have either not travelled or requested a refund.

[NTarrant]

RichHI there is no VAT on air travel, but your comment is quite correct.

Martyn still not sure where you are coming from. It is quite simple that if the airline refunds taxes et al, less a fee then you get it back. If you have to contact the airline for your refund due (less admin charges) then it is up to you to do so. If you don’t then that money remains with the airline to do whatever they wish with.

You need to look at this from a business perspective and it would not be just airlines. If you are Mr BA and one of your customers do not travel and they don’t come to you and say “hey I want the refund due” when you have said that they must say that. What are you going to do? Are you going to go back on your conditions and chase the punter and give him is money back? No you say thank you very much and put it on your bottom line. Its not corrupt, its not illegal or anything else it is just business

[craigwatson]

Hi Martyn, i get your point, but if the pax doesnt request the refund, of course the airline is going to keep it, what are they suppose to do with it? I suppose they could donate it to charity, but well, we know thats not going to happen.

[Cedric_Statherby]

LondonCity

Yes, I think you are right, and that was why it was abandoned. But the solution is for the tax counter to take credit cards or (hard) currencies, not to abandon the whole concept. We do have better technology now and almost no-one travels with NO means of payment (or if they do they shouldn’t!)

I lived in Hong Kong for several years in the 1990s and there was a departure tax payable in cash then. As one entered Hong Kong one was given the chance to pay the departure tax straight away and get a receipt you kept with your airline ticket (paper ones then of course). I never did because I was “coming home” not entering as a visitor who was soon to leave, but it seems a workable solution.

Basically I would have thought the airlines would want to be shot of playing unpaid tax-collectors for the local tax authorities and would welcome any way of highlighting this tax!

[RichHI1]

NTarrant thanks for correction. May years since I did UK Vat return, more familiar with General Excise Tax now… unfortunately…..

Maybe we should say VAT is not currently charged on air travel in the United Kingdom (knowing what big fans of air travel Mssrs Cameron and Osborne are…

[craigwatson]

Cedric – I think the sheer number of people travelling now would cause mass queues and disruption at airports. No matter how well thought out, the process is only as efficient as the thickest traveller.

[MartynSinclair]

Anyone heard of business ethics!

How can there be any (in bold and underlined!) justification for an airline (indeed any compnay) keeping money which they have collected or charged for a specific (again underlined and in bold) purpose and that specific purpose didnt happen.

“What are they supposed to do with it” ????????????

May be its the regulated world I live in thats casued me to ask this question, but I do not believe for one minute that any company has the right to keep money, that they have collected on behalf of a third party and were never due to have benefit of…..

[Author]

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