[RichHI1]

Cedric, can you imagine it, someone at Heathrow will dig through a cable and the machines will stop working. BAA will want to charge for using the machines. BA will demand the system is rewritten to interface with their bookign system and LH will say it is not compatible. US carriers will be told that unless srvers are in US they cannot participate….

[craigwatson]

Martyn – nobody is saying they have the right to keep it. what it sounds like you are saying is that if a person never asks for or claims for their refund the airline should go out of its way (costing them time and money) to find and refund these people. Why?

If you leave your car with me to go on holiday and then decide to stay there, and never ask for it back, you can be d**m sure im not going to ship it to you.

there HAS to be some onus on the consumer.

[MartynSinclair]

I can just see accountants and solicitors being able to keep tax refunds never claimed and other assets being held and long forgotten about, including overpayments etc etc.

this discussion is being viewed from 2 different perspectives. Realisitically, I agree a company can not be expected to automatically refund these payments, but neither should the company be able to benefit.

there is an ethic in business that you should not take advantage of those less experienced.

a company the size of BA should have a protocol for dealing with accounted for but unremited APD and keeping for themselves, IMHO is unethical.

If the refund issue is that complicated it may be considered that by agreeing to handle the APD, even if dictated by law, that airlines contracts with their consumers fall foul of the Unfair Contracts Regulations

“Unfair Terms
5.—(1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer”

[NTarrant]

Craig I think we will have to admit defeat in trying to explain to Martyn. As for bringing in accountants and solicitors to the debate rather shows that the regulated world you live in has tarnished your realism.

Where do you get these Unfair Terms from? I doubt it is applicable in a consumer sense

[RichHI1]

Martyn I understand your pont from a moral ground, where I have difficulty is linking BA behavior with ethics.
As the requirement to collect taxes is imposed by the Government not by the contracting parties I cannot see how Unfair Contract Terms Act applies.

[RichHI1]

In case ther are any travel professionals out there, question for you. If a large person cannot fit in a single seat then US carriers will sell them a secind seat so they can be accomodated on aircraft. In the case of a flight departing from the UK, if a passenger has had to buy two seats, are they liable for 2 sets of UKAPD, one for each seat?

[MartynSinclair]

I think you will find that these Unfair Terms apply to consumer contracts.

In my world, collecting money on behalf of lets say the Governement or any third party and then not passing it on to the Government (or third party) and then claiming ownership to that money, is unethical, unfair and probably open to prosecution.

If it is the law as Nigel states, that the an airline has to collect APD ++ and then it only becomes due when the passenger departs, then this is what the airlines will put into their contracts or T & C of travel with their pax.

The unfair element comes in because by keeping the funds outright or even charging more than the value of the APD to refund the APD, there is a commercial advanatge to the airlines and therefore an imbalance to the consumer by the airlines offloading or refusing to board a passenger for whatever reason.

As for the regualted world I live in tarnishing realism, Nigel, you are damn right and we are agreed on that totally. Realism and Regulation are diametrically opposed !

[NTarrant]

Martyn I quite agree with you that any organisation that is collecting taxes and fails to pass on those sums in a fraudulent manner risk prosecution and rightly so.

In the case of APD the tax point is the time and date of travel, so if you don’t travel then the money is money and not tax as the taxable part never took place and the HMRC is not due any part of that transaction. HMRC is not being “done” out of any revenue, it may still get the same amount by another passenger taking that seat or not if it remained empty and unsold.

It is unlikely that the airline would be at a commercial advantage as a result of keeping the amount that would have been APD. As Craig sid the passenger has to have ownership of their own destiny and take responsibility to ensure that they get the refund. As I mentioned before BA contacted me when Mrs T was not able to travel, it didn’t have to and the onus would have been on me to contact them.

You can have too much regulation, like sell by dates that waste mountains of food, frankly I would be more concerned about that than an airline making a few quid on unclaimed APD refunds.

[MartynSinclair]

Nigel, why should the ownership be with the consumer?

Airline has my name, credit card number, email address. Their computers know when I am about to fly. If I fly, the money is transfered to the third party, if I dont fly, the money is transfered back to me.

Where’s the problem…………………no need for a human to get involved, except to programme the computer!

Life can be that simple………………………its when humans get involved that it becomes complicated…..!!!!

[SimonS1]

Martyn – it isn’t a question of people keeping something they were never intended to benefit from. All I am saying is that the airline should be allowed to cover reasonable costs in processing the refund. The airline has to employ administration people to cover the costs of such activities and there is no good reason why all travellers should cover the costs through the ticket price if you are the one who decides not to travel. Particularly when the terms and conditions are clearly stated at the outset.

[NTarrant]

I don’t know that there is a problem. From my experience I was contacted by the airline to clarify everything. I don’t know what happens if you travel with Easyjet or Ryanair. There is a cost involved in refunding you your money which is a charge made to the merchant by the card operator.

But if you decide not to travel you then phone the airline and say you are not travelling anyway so a human is involved.

Anyway have a good weekend Martyn, I’m off to the pub now.

[Author]

Posts