[Greg]

As a regular business class passenger on the London-Istanbul route, I must say BA REALLY IS THAT BAD because they put on an A320/321 with EXACTLY the same seats in Business as in Economy, (with the middle seat empty). A 4 hour flight, with the minimum seat width and pitch and no entertainment – not even a drop down route map.

Compare that to Turkish, who fly a 777 or a 320 with 2-2 business seats configuration, lie-flat beds and a full international entertainment system.

And before I have to put on my tin hat, my 500k+ avios is the reason I chose BA

[CheerUp]

@Greg is that not the reason BA are less motivated to put a better product on – the fact they know people will still book and use it due to Avios and Tier Points fixations?

The only way BA will be inclined to improve these mid haul products is if customers act with their feet and move to other airlines with superior products, at the cost of their treasured avios/ tier points?

[FDOS]

@timirvine1977

In recent years, I’ve taken to using AA on the LHR-ORD run (our son lives in Illinois) and have found their 787s to be clean and comfortable in premium economy. The food is edible and portions are decent and the drinks menu is more than adequate for me. The flight attendants are straight to the point, but I’m used to US culture and so that’s fine with me, as they are pretty efficient.

I’m about to fly across in a couple of months and so have probably cursed my flights!!!

As I’ll lose BA silver in June, the time after this, it will be Skyteam, with whom I have a gold card, soon to be platinum.

[Greg]

@CheerUp – quite probably, it’s certainly one factor. The sliding partitioning curtain is another bonus for them.

Another is that BAs Club is almost always full of Brits, (and an increasing number or Russians using IST as a hub) while Turks tend to prefer their own. I can quite understand that, when BA never gives any announcement in Turkish, and I’m not sure any crew could help a non-English speaking passenger. All THY crew are bi-lingual on the UK routes.

I don’t have any tier points, but I do treasure my Avios, and a (up to) £1000 round trip with THY is another consideration.

[FDOS]

Greg, you need to try that BA config on the 5 hour route to/from CAI. I did (once) never again.

It cost my client over £2k and I’d rate the experience as cr@p.

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Greg

[TominScotland]

Greg/ FDOS, it is worth noting that both KLM and Lufthansa are equally ‘that bad’ in the aircraft and business class product they offer between Europe and Istanbul (737/321). With regard to Cairo, Lufthansa are equally ‘that bad’ in flying a 321, KLM do not offer that route (on the dates I looked at) and route via Paris with AF who do fly a 787 to Cairo. So, maybe BA is equally ‘that bad’ to other European operators but nothing to get too excited about????

[BackOfThePlane]

I think most people will agree (?) that, within Europe (and let’s not get too geo-political here), Turkish offer the best economy and business class service.

The difference between BA & Turkish between London & Istanbul is clearly night & day in business. Even in economy, Turkish provide a decent hot meal with booze and seatback entertainment. Aside from Avios, Tier points etc, a complete no-brainer.

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Greg, cybertravller

[FDOS]

“FDOS, it is worth noting that both KLM and Lufthansa are equally ‘that bad’ in the aircraft and business class product they offer between Europe and Istanbul (737/321)”

Tom, I was referencing Cairo, not Istanbul.

Having said that, why are you benchmarking downwards? The fact that LH and KL use poor aircraft does not lessen my comment that the BA experience was cr@p, with a seat pitch of 30″, it wasn’t even feasible to do any work on my laptop. At least KLM has a 33″ seat pitch on the 738.

Air France use widebodies on the route – that would have been my choice, except business and premium were sold out on the days I needed to travel.

[SwissExPat]

I have been BAEC Silver (or occasionally Gold) since 2000.

Generally I have never really had a significant issue with BA in that period. Sometimes I have noiced the Mixed Fleet crew were not quite up to standard. Occasionally I have had excellent service from Legacy crew. I’ve never had a terrible meal onboard and certainly had more than my fair share of free upgrades (Y+ to J).

Certainly, the IT systems are quite clunky.

Standout FAILURE is what is happening to OnBusiness.

I expect that the quality of the BAEC (and avios) is responsible for keeping PAX coming back repeatedly. I have approx 500k in Avios and hence will likely use these for european sectors for the next few years.

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ASK1945

[Rferguson2]

TomInScotland hits the nail on the head. Who is the odd one out on mid haul routes like IST? BA or TK? Unfortunately, it is the latter.

All of the other european carriers flying to Istanbul do so with the exact same hard product as BA – taking a row of economy seats, blocking out the middle one and calling it ‘business class’.

But I totally agree with @Greg. Taking into comparison BA and TK on the IST route I know who I would rather fly with and it would be the one with the nicer seats and planes.

[TominScotland]

FDOS, I am aware of that and that is why I included Cairo examples as well – LH (with 321) and AF (with 787)

[cwoodward]

Why when Asian, Australasia and various other parts of the world can offer a decent short haul business class cabin with proper food service and comfort at affordable costs cannot (or will not UK and European airlines) offer a decent product ?

I stand to be corrected but having spoken to folk that know the costs involved it seems to me that whoever makes the first substantive move will derive considerable patronage and profit that would in a very short time offset fit-out and other costs involved and make a killing for at least a few years until the competition were forced to follow.

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CheerUp

[Nick Pike]

I agree with everything all have said about short haul business. That said, the reason why BA (and others) love the current set up is as much about flexibility as it is density. At present they can sell as many (or as few) club/business seats as they wish, simply pushing the curtain back down the cabin as they do. It means we get to the situation. particularly on leisure destinations as the Canaries, when you can get over a dozen rows of business.

If someone is to break the mould in “Europe”- aside from Egyptair, Turkish and RJ, say-they have to limit the size of both the business (and economy) cabin. Sadly,I can’t see that happening anytime soon.

As an aside, I’m replicating the Club Europe experience on Ryanair next month on its new Norwich/Malta flight. Have booked (and paid for)the seat next to me in the name of Mr Extra Comfort-Seat…..

[ViajeroUK]

I haven’t used BA for a long time but they are not alone in offering the same seat for short/medium haul Euro flights. There probably will be no change because of the moveable curtain that many airlines operate.

Airlines that do offer different seating in short haul business can only sell a limited number of business class tickets, not so BA and others, they simply move the curtain back, and further back, the more premium tickets that they sell. I seem to remember reports of 9 or 10 rows of ‘business class’ seats on some short haul flights. I guess as long as the demand is there they will carry on selling the tickets and raking in the profits.

[Rferguson2]

@ Cwoodward.
1) Supply and demand. Some of those intra asia/domestic business class fares are eye wateringly high. Just a few examples.
Attempting to find similar distanced flights I had a look at the cheapest return business class fares on the following routes: LHR-ATH and back (BA). Sydney to Perth and back (QF). HKG – TYO and back (CX). For each route I selected the cheapest return biz fare and included a saturday night.

The cheapest BA fare was £739.

Next up was CX to TYO at £1820.

And last QF at a staggering £2975 (which is a sale fare).

I just don’t know who would pay those kind of fares in europe to make it worthwhile for the airlines when the industry is so cut throat and the loco’s are offering one way fares for £20 on may routes.

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FaroFlyer, MartynSinclair, ASK1945, TominScotland

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