[SimonS1]

Karl Marx/MrMichael – it isn’t hyperbole to suggest that control was lost, as it is exactly what is stated in the official report of the Air Accidents Investigation Branch.

I would respectfully suggest they are best placed to reach that judgement.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/DHC-8-402%20Dash%208%20G-JECJ%2008-14.pdf

[MrMichael]

Hi Simon, yes, it says he lost control, however although not stated it was clearly momentarily, and with winds described as gusty it is likely that an aircraft such as the Dash 8 a bouncy landing is not by any means unusual, certainly not in my experience. I have on occasions experienced heavy landings (one at the old Kai Tack that still gives me nightmares!), and they are reportable

I still consider that changing of the thread name from what it was to a tabloid type heading was not necessary. Having said that, I respect BT’s right to do so, it is after all their forum and not mine. I also respect your right to respond to me and to disagree with me. Is it Hyperbole, perhaps not. I guess loss of control requires further text to clarify what is meant. The pilot did lose control, but the aircraft was not out of control…not an ideal situation but perhaps not so very dangerous either. It does make me wonder if commander or co-pilot considered a go around….but they can end in disaster too.

[KarlMarx]

SimonS1

Taking your point about the wording, I called a friend of mine works in the industry. Apparently your document is a ‘bulletin’, not a report and originates from a report that the pilot filed after the ‘heavy landing.’ The view on ‘the streets’ is that the final report will be saying something a little different and the phrase ‘control was lost’ is unlikely to appear, being toned down to something like ‘control was momentarily lost and regained’ or a similar form of words.

We will see when the report comes out.

[SimonS1]

KarlMarx – indeed we will. Or maybe we won’t, as not every bulletin results in a formal report particularly where a field inspection has not taken place. However at this stage it is the only formal documentation in existence and personally I wouldn’t place too much reliance on reports in the media, the “view on the streets” etc etc.

Mr Michael – you are making observations about “it was clearly momentarily”, “the aircraft was not out of control”, “not so very dangerous” etc, however as none of us were there I think this is just speculation. As stated above the AAIB bulletin is the only formal document in existence, everything else is just conjecture.

[MartynSinclair]

If and only IF the Captain lost control, there was a perfectly, able and capable second pilot who could have taken over.

I have never heard of a pilots arm detaching as being part of a simulator exercise (may be it is part of Flybe’s sim training programme) but virtually every other pilot problem is, to ensure a second pilot is able to take over during any phase of the flight.

The article is interesting reading, but at no point would a professionally run flight department/airline consider this anything more than a minor incident.

EDIT – just read the AAIB article – and note the Capt’s comments in future to brief co pilot about the possibility of a late “take control” order… nothing more the CRM!

[PeterCoultas]

there are clearly serious reviews of a pilots suitability to fly unmodified passenger aircraft (cars are adapted for one handed or leg impaired car drivers) …BUT…it does seem strange that only one arm is deemed to be safe flying a commercial aircraft

[Xuluman]

He will have been given a class 1 medical on the basis of convincing the CAA his device was not at all a hindrance in operating the aircraft, as if he wasn’t disabled in any way. The problem is he has just demonstrated to the CAA that infact his device is not safe, and not 100% reliable, and concedes that this could happen again at a critical time of flight.

Pilots can lose their class 1 medical for all sorts of mundane reasons which with proper management would not pose any threat to their operation of the aircraft. However the CAA would argue that a small chance exists where these problems could incapacitate them, as has happened here. So what’s the difference? Why the exception?

Imagine the surprise of these people who have lost their license, who can also operate the aircraft perfectly well 99.999% of the time, to learn of this guy being allowed to keep his medical. Was their condition not sexy enough to warrant the equal opportunities guff?

Are they similarly not allowed to just brief away the remote possibility of incapacitation to satisfy the CAA?

[openfly]

@Zuluman. I totally agree with your points. A person very close to me lost his licence and therefore lost his job as a BA Captain for a minor problem. He pointed out, quite sensibly, that he would never pose a threat to safety as he would always have a co-pilot with him. After all, heart attacks happen unannounced. A commercial pilot over 40 has to have a medical every 6 months….the authorities are looking for problems that could affect safety, and rightly so.

@SimonS1 Again, I agree with your point. In this instance the Captain admits that “I lost control during the flare and landing”. He was unable to to reduce the power via the thrust levers and landed with the power on. He said he used his ” good hand to eventually control the power after touching down”. This would have happened over several seconds, time for sensible decisions regarding the safety of his aircraft and it’s passengers to be made. A remarkable situation in a cross-wind. But he was incapable of effecting a safe late go-around due to his lack of dexterity on the thrust levers should it have been necessary. Why did he not hand control to the co-pilot….a misjudgement that could have affected “the safe conduct of the flight”?

The UK CAA is a very sensible and globally respected body. With the media hype on this incident, I am sure that heads are being scratched at high level and a further review into acceptable reasons for pilot incapacitation being looked at.

[MartynSinclair]

My late father retained his license in the mid 80’s after a heart attack, but he was made to go through the mill by the CAA medical authorities. Sadly, he did have a further attack some years later that did not give him a further chance to reapply.

Each case has to be viewed individually. The CAA do not grant medical certificates easily… even to the healthy….

[IanFromHKG]

Openfly, I’m with you – I can’t help but wonder whether it would have been better to hand over control, and whether his failure to do so brings his judgment into question, and frankly in this situation I would regard concerns about his judgment should be of greater weight than his (no doubt closely scrutinized, assessed and approved) physical disability

I am no pilot, but when a captain, in mid-landing, has the choice of (1) handing over control to someone fully able to control the aircraft or (2) deciding to (a) sacrifice control over thrust to retain lost control of the yoke during the landing and then, apparently, (b) sacrifice control over yoke to control thrust after landing; I would rather it had been option (1).

I would be most interested to hear the views of other pilots on this particular aspect.

[SealinkBF]

This story didn’t really bother me, I was impressed at how someone can overcome an adversity like that and still fly.

[LuganoPirate]

A pilot during his career will have to make many judgement calls, as did this one. Fortuneately the greater majority were right ones, the ones that weren’t we usually learn about on Aircrash Investigation!

We weren’t in the cockpit so we don’t know what was running through his mind, but he’d have perhaps milliseconds to decide what to do. The fact he landed safely is perhaps testament to the fact he made the right decision.

Many many years ago when learning to fly, I was coming in to land on runway 24 in a Cessna 172 at Rotterdam airport. I was struggling a bit and managed to enter a stall still 50agl. My trainer, a KLM captain and good friend calmly took over, nose down, increase power and got control back.

However, for some reason, I turned around and through the rear window saw a Fokker F28 of NLM City Hopper nose up bearing rapidly down on us. I called out to Willy who looked around then just slammed the Cessna onto the ground and swerved off the runway onto the grass for the F28 to touch down almost simultaneously. Now this took just seconds and we all had decisions to take but these were calls that had to be made immediately, with no time to discuss them or contact ATC.

We went over to the NLM plane to speak with their crew and decide if we wanted to make this official. We then went up to ATC to talk to them and they admitted they had a trainee who had become “confused”.

Anyway, the pilots all decided not to make an incident report since the hassle they’d have to go through didn’t warrant it. In those days they’d have been suspensions while it was investigated so many incidents went unreported and yet there were valuable lessons to be learned here.

And so with the Flybe Captain, he called it right, flying is his passion and he’s very experienced. I’d not hesitate to fly with him and I don’t think we armchair pilots are in any position to judge him!

[MrMichael]

LuganoPirate, 100% agree with you.

[BigDog.]

LuganoPirate – 17/08/2014 18:50 GMT
+1

Though there is the one in 10,000 whom are not so calm….

http://www.arabnews.com/news/saudi-arabia/616266

[canucklad]

And here’s a sobering thought……

How many of us know friends, relatives or colleagues that shouldn’t be allowed behind the wheel of a car, yet we seem strangely tolerant of this danger.

[Author]

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