[AnthonyDunn]

@ VintageKrug – 27/03/2013 11:49 GMT

VK: ever the hostage to Tory transport dogma…. Sadly, your memory is letting you down rather badly.

If you possessed any sense of detachment it might allow you to remove the blinkers from your eyes and you might just admit that the privatisation of the railways amounted to the most conspicuous cock-up in UK transport history. I well recall an FT article about rail privatisation in which City investors were interviewed. Some stated that the terms on offer for the train leasing companies were so generous to the City that there was a queue both ways around the block in order to get a hand on one of them: “a licence to print money” I seem to recall for a favoured few (Tory supporters) in the City.

Then there was the hiatus in train and locomotive orders of over two years which lead to most of the UK’s train building industry going belly-up… So that now we are back into train ordering mode, we are having to import from Alstom (France), ABB (Sweden), Siemens (Germany) and Hitachi of Japan. Even the last remaining UK rail manufacturing facility (owned by Bombardier of Canada) imports a substantial part of its equipment from its German based plants. So, whilst we ought to be using HS2 as an opportunity to pursue a “Buy UK First!” policy for a project 100% funded by UK taxpayers, we will (in all probability) end up providing yet another income stream to German manufacturing industry.

You also appear to be blissfully unaware that (and I even got a letter from a then Tory Minister of State at the Department of Transport to trumpet this point…) privatisation was sold on the basis that it would see a considerable reduction in the taxpayer subsidy to the railways. The reality is that the level of subsidy has doubled post privatisation and if ever British Railways had received the same level of subsidy and investment funding as enjoyed by the privatised rail operators, then I have no doubt that it would have been able to provide an incomparably better level of service.

Rail privatisation followed a classic Tory trajectory: cut investment to the bone so that service quality falls dramatically and then use this as a substantial part of the rational for service privatisation. Margaret Thatcher made great play of never having taken a train throughout her time in power. I very well recall the occasion that she had senior BR managers along for dinner. She proceeded to berate them for their performance, stating that if they were any good, then they would be working in the private sector rather than at BR. At which point several stood up and walked out there and then. As far as she was concerned, the railways were an entirely political issue and the Tories were entirely happy to turn BR into a political football to be kicked around from pillar to post.

Oh, and BTW, Railtrack (sic) was a property development company that had the misfortune to have to look after the rail infrastructure at the same time – as was evidenced by their criminal conduct in maintaining the permanent way. The backlog of maintenance inherited from them by Network Rail has required a fortune (in state guaranteed expenditure) to fix.

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

I think it is well known in the Railway Industry that the Railway privatisation in the mid 90’s is a template to the world of how not to privatise a railway system. It has to be one of the worst privatisations ever undertaken of any industry in any country in the world. Yes there has been massive investment but this is only because it would have had to happen under government ownership anyway (like replacing all slam door stock – that was a law – nothing to do with privatisation).

As someone eho has followed the railways closely it is believable that ECML could make £600m in 2 years (even if figures are slightly wrong). These are the kind of premium private companies were looking to pay towards the end of the franchises at the moment – if you looked at aborted West coast some of the premiums at the back end of the term were much higher than that.

I have to disagree with you VK – a fully private railway will simply never work. The huge amount of “Sunk” costs and so forth would make it an utter disaster – it simply isn’t going to happen. I believe in private enterprise but I would be the first to reduce complexity in the railways and nationalise many of the things carried out by private companies on the railways at the moment – certainly on the Operating side of things.

Just seen Anthony’s points – couldn’t have said some of the things better. Also has a point before privatisation the railways only needed about £1bn in subsidy to run each year. It is now north of £5bn. You can’t say that is cheaper – even if there was decades of under investment. If this investment had been done in a nationalised arena the money would have been spent much more efficiently (rather than on cross industry insurance, lawyers and so forth). It is also likely that we would have many more British train builders still in existence and more skilled jobs in the UK rather than having to buy in from overseas.

Oh well heyho!

[VintageKrug]

I never said the Privatisation wasn’t a cock-up. It was. It was bungled, and not what I’d call a proper privatisation.

Many of the lingering issues with the State owned entities persisted, and in particular the high levels of upfront investment vs. slow payback were not sufficiently understood at the time. Many compromises were made.

What is clear is that a huge amount of investment on the railways has occurred without raiding the Public Purse to the extent which would otherwise have been necessary; all this coupled with a HUGE increase in ridership.

The argument that subsidies doubled is fair, but ONLY if you align the subsidies to the ridership. In per passenger terms, the subsidy has fallen.

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

VK

State support has increased by a factor of 5 (not including underhand accounting methods they use to keep state support of the books). Ridership has increased roughly by a factor less than 2 (750m journey in 93/94 – lowest number it drops to in a long time compared to 1.36bn journeys in 2009/10 (and slightly higher in the last 2 years) So it is now costing the taxpayer more on average per journey even if direct subsidy to the train operators has decreased. By the figures above you’ll find state subisdy has tripled per passenger since privatisation.

[VintageKrug]

Well, I’m afraid I’m not equipped to argue with trainspotters, so I’ll have to leave you to your beliefs, and unreferenced data.

State ownership without significant market intervention is never a good thing.

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

VK – may I suggest you maybe pick a copy of Modern Railways and read the “informed sources” section by Roger Ford – or the “Insider” Column. Rail magazine and Barry Doe (fare specialist) is also very interesting. Then you may have a much better understanding of what is really happening in the railways industry and the ridiculousness of it all.

Edited To add (taken from Daily Telegraph on Monday in the Business section).

“Industry figures show the number of rail travellers has nearly doubled since the mid-1990s, when the industry was privatised, from 761m to 1.4bn.”

The article also goes on to say that since privatisation the number of carraiges has only increased by 12% yet numbers are up by nearly 100%. Might help explain some of the overcrowding. I can’t be bothered to find the ATOC or DoT figures – I don’t need to. Likewise if you really want me to go and find the figures on subsidy I will!

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

And before you ask – no I don’t have an anorak!!

[Henkel.Trocken]

” VintageKrug – 27/03/2013 14:23 GMT

Well, I’m afraid I’m not equipped to argue with trainspotters, so I’ll have to leave you to your beliefs, and unreferenced data.”

And the references as opposed to claims in your own posts were where exactly?

Did follow the link I posted yesterday about bullying? You should.

[canucklad]

Afternoon VK……..you pointed out the following

“One of the lingering issues with contributors here is the expectation that a large corporate – and especially a former State Owned entity – immediately transforms under new ownership.”

However in this case the reverse is true, under the guise of a privatised GNER they failed……..and as you said in your first post on this topic…..the passenger experiance is now positive!!

[VintageKrug]

No, you may not suggest I pick up a copy of “Modern Railways”!

How dare you 😉

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

You’d be surprised – it is actually very interesting if you want to know more about the railways (not in a trainspotter kind of way – I’m not one) and understand what is going on and what goes on. But then it might utterly depress you.

[VintageKrug]

It may be interesting, but I’m not sure I could summon up the courage to read such a publication in public!

On the matter of yet another dull-to-read goading post from the usual suspect:

I think drawing attention only feeds his ego, but here we go again.

To save bother, I’ll just cut and paste a post from November shortly after HT returned from his very enjoyable posting hiatus May 21st 2012-September 17th 2012:

Henkel.Trocken – 13/05/2012 11:21 GMT
[To Hippocampus]
Did you have lessons in being offensive, obnoxious and arrogant or are they natural qualities?

Henkel.Trocken – 13/05/2012 11:12 GMT
Lovely bit of apologising VirtualKrug! Has your simulator crashed this morning so that you had time to look up and post all those links?

Henkel.Trocken – 13/05/2012 11:21 GMT
No doubt my points will receive an apology too as VirtualKrug clearly has nothing better to do today and his little friends Becky and the Hippo are out to play too.

Henkel.Trocken – 13/05/2012 14:58 GMT
[to VintageKrug]
You really need to get a life
—-

There are plenty more, but those were the ones I had to hand.

For the above poster to accuse me of personal attacks is, frankly, extraordinary.

It would test the patience of a saint not to react to the constant insults HT freely metes out, so I think my few remarks have been tame in comparison to what’s been heading in my direction.

I usually ignore the snide remarks, they don’t annoy me, but they must be bothersome for others to read.

However, there comes a point when they do become the norm, and that is not acceptable. It’s really up to the other BT posters to set out what they believe to be acceptable.

Henkel.Trocken is one of the main problems, and his attempts to turn the spotlight off himself as the problem by seeking to discredit, undermine and belittle me and others, all the time suggesting we are the ones who are the problem, is extraordinary.

Well, it won’t work.

This is an entertainment forum, and for anyone to come on here and pursue personal vendettas (for what I can’t imagine) is sad in the extreme.

Now, let’s please not have any further discussion on the matter, and continue to ignore the troll.

[Shearer]

GNER were exceptional in the first franchise, but they overbid because of the competitive nature of franchising and went belly up.

Amazingly, National Express bid more to pick up the pieces, overbidding because of the competitive nature of franchising and went belly up. Their franchise was notable for removing the restaurant car and stripping back on things like, er, cleaning the trains.

It beggars belief that a flagship rail route, serving London, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Aberdeen could become such a basket case.

East Coast are not as fondly thought of as GNER yet when I have travelled with them I have been more than happy with their services.

Until franchises are granted on the basis of quality and service, rather than this distorted notion that you can win a railway franchise by throwing money at it and sod the consequences, you will continue to have private companies running cap in hand to the government when the going gets tough. Virgin, First Great Western, Southern, Southeastern, SouthWest Trains – they’ve all done it. And the reason is because as a nation, we don’t know what our railways are for.

The only one that seems to work is Chiltern, who were granted a 25 year franchise and have quietly got on with it, without the distraction of franchise bids.

As Christian Wolmar asks repeatedly – ‘What is franchising for?”

[Shearer]

I keep on forgetting about the way this forum works and end up posting stuff about travel.

[VintageKrug]

“A traveller without observation is a bird without wings.” – Moslih Eddin Saadi

[Author]

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