[Anonymous]

[Hess963]

Hi everyone !!

I became aware of this report this morning:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8293536.stm

Most of the frequent users and readers hier know about what is going on with BA at the moment. On one side the grand inaugural of BA’s new prestigous route LCY-JFK as well as aspirations to help fellow Oneworld JAL and on the other side this slashing of jobs on 1700 employees and pushing their sacrifices inorder to keep their jobs in the company ( see report over future role of BA’s cabin crew)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8148759.stm

Yes, the airline industry is struggling and every airline company battles for revenue and survival–
So how will it goes further or when will it finally goes up instead of constantly going down the road?? How will be the future of BA’s cabin crew and their quality ??

[JonathanCohen09]

Hi Hess,

I saw the two articles as well and they do not make very nice reading particularly if you are currently working for BA wondering what is going to happen to your job.

Regular contributors to this forum know that I am not a great fan of BA but neither am I a ‘BA basher’ and I certainly do not wish them ill or want to see them go out of business!

I am surprised however at some of the decisions that BA’s management have made that will clearly impact on the service that the groundstaff can offer and the level of service that their colleagues can offer in the air.

Changes to the catering on board in whatever class you fly, but particularly in the Premium cabins, affect everyone and any reduction in those areas by an airline that is still seen as a ‘full service’ carrier cannot be a good thing. Charging to book a seat will not affect everyone but in the current climate can BA afford to loose any premium passengers? Especially those, many of whom have spoken about it in their postings here, who would like to fly BA but will not now do so because of the new additional charge.

I understand that all airlines are having a difficult time and must make cost savings and raise additional revenues wherever they can. I am just not sure that making savings that end up loosing you premium passengers is the best way to do it.

As always I look forward to hearing the views of as many people as possible on the thread that Hess has started. Hopefully well measured and thought out posts with constructive ideas as to how things can be improved without the normal slanging match we often get between the pro and anti BA contributors to this forum!

[NTarrant]

I have taken seven BA flights to/from LGW in nine days in Club Europe, the service has been consistantly good on all flights. The crew seem to be making an effort to serve customers in a way that they will want to return. It was also quite evident that on all but one flight the entire Club Europe cabin was full.

I am sure the usual people who are ready to knock BA will come up with some more, but lets face it if BA cabin crew are the best paid then they will know that and will try and protect their positions including giving the customers the service they deserve.

Now some may feel they don’t get that service, but as someone who monitors customer service in various industries, you do have to go a long way to beat BA. I am reminded that when my wife and I returned from SIN – LHR in July it was afairly turbulent flight and my wife can’t sleep in those conditions. She was the only one awake through most of the night on the upper deck in Club World and one of the FA’s regularly checked she was okay and made cups of tea etc. She always comments on how good the crew were on that flight.

Its the management that have to get their act together and start looking at ways to add value to attract back the premium customers and those lost to the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet. It is interesting that both these airlines are pulling out of various routes to save money and poor old BMI are also a heavy loss maker.

[Senator]

Hi,

I have tried to understand why BA is such a bad state compared to LH or even AF/KLM. While I have not filtered through all of the annual reports going back a few years, I believe BA suffers like carmakers in the US; legacy cost, and high production cost today.

My understanding is that BA carries a big burden related to defined benefit (DB) pension scheme. At one point earlier this year, the value of BA on LSE was less than the value of the under-funded pension scheme. This is not something hampering LH or AF/KLM.

In addition, the cost of operating LHR T5/T3, and LGW as “hubs” must be costlier than FRA and CDG.

[Hess963]

Hi everyone !!

Yes, Gents indeed—-it is very hard not to bash on BA at the moment. But Jonathan is right here !! It would be better, if we discuss and argue those aspects objectively without any daft comments! It seems whatever W. Walsh do–it is not good enough or isn’t it just seem so ??

The point about ” high quality service ” is definitely one aspect, I assume a lot of us can talk about it. Like NTarrant has said—in general BA F/A are great. They really give high qualtiy service–of course there are new recruits or less motivited F/A–but in overall view
BA have F/A who know how to deal with pax ( I am speaking here over my personal experiences in F, C and WTP cabins) and their needs. It is nice to see and experience those typical Asian gestures of hospitality–but even SQ, CX, TG..F/As are only human beings–even they have bad days or less motivated for whatever reasons.

So how does this job cuts affect the good service attitude in the future ? Well, when BA prefers short contracts, slash seniority experiences and cut pensions–well I assume a lot of these good manpower will be looking for a better job. And the level of service will be going down and the most frequent flyers will see and experience it onboard. These well knowledged and experienced employees are surely going to the airlines who can pay more—like EK, EY, QR etc…

How could those new recruits going to be motivated by the senior F/As to improve and maintain the good level standard when these people are threaten with lost and cuts from the quality of life they know and cheerish? The plain answer–they will be indifferent. They will only do the basis services and the new ones will be struggling to know and cope on their own. Ergo..bad service quality–stressed pax–stressed F/A–bad airline..

And the new recruits–yes, if they did not know what is before–there is actually no need to compare themselves then–but..if they are only intended to stay with BA for 5 years and get poor salaries–what is the striving force to start and feel bonded with BA then ??

Probably a lot of us out there just switch airlines easily as we don’t care enough–only the price and the absolutely high expectactions flying in a premium cabin and getting its benefits as good as possible are the main points.

But there are still others out there–who do really care over such issues, eventhough we are customers of BA and not there employees. As we( I do) can identitfy ourselves in such situations–losing jobs, earning less or poor, slashing pensions, no recognition for the long or life long bond with the company…

It is a very tough situation—and in such situations the management will have to prove themselves and show they can manage such issues satisfying both sides of the parties and maintaning BA as one of the best airlines in the world..

[PaulJennings]

One speaks as one finds – my experience in travelling with BA is that the onboard service is great. But I’m bemused by some of the recent management decisions. Since the skies turned orange, I don’t actually expect free food and drinks on domestic one-class flights and I’d be happy to go without. It would also seem logical that I should have to pay extra if I want to check a case. Plenty of ancillary revenues to be got there. But I do expect that a £3,000+ long haul business class fare includes pre-reserved seats.

[marckirby]

MichelAngelo

I agree entirely. Well said.

[NTarrant]

Interesting you touch on moral Hess and the future employees. In the Standard tonight it says that it will be a long time before any new FA’s are recruited at the lower rate of pay. In the same editionthat Aer Lingus is slashing jobs and crew are expected to take a 10% pay cut.

If the above is right the the BA FA’s need to stay put! We hear that Ryanair is pulling out of MAN and Easyjet out of EMA but there is little published on the jobs effect. It would seem that even those still making a profit are cutting before they make a loss.

[MarcusUK]

Clear out the “Management team” & Walsh for a start.

Not one of them have accepted responsibility for the numerous, & regular highly publicised events that are down to poor planning, bad operational, & even worse- strategic management. The Directors should have gone a long time ago, but they have no guts or decency, to leave.
BA staff surely can only work with the resources & tools they are allocated. It is a tough time for all airlines, but cutting as BA have to the core base of its most loyal travellers, leaving morale through the floor with the staff teams, is commercial suicide.
NO Business, with its staff so unhappy, with the resources to perform in a content, “proud to be part of the Company” way, can be said to be being run competently.
The cutbacks are foolish & ill thought out, & they place BA on par with a low cost operation.
LH & KLM/AF don’t ever gain such bad press, they continue to buy out other airlines, gain a stronger hold on slots (AF at LCY now have 60%+), & LH go strength to strength in Eastern Europe.

How can it survive?

Dismiss the senior/ Corporate “Management” & bring in someone to start to repair the damage they have caused, or BA will have hammered it’s own nails into it’s own coffin.
None of us would tolerate or wish to work for or manage a business like BA has continued to do.
They are a stain on the capability of British management.

[Hess963]

Good point here Mark !!

Is W. Walsh and his upper management team really that far away from BA’s current situation/performance ?? Do this directors and superiors really could not cope with all those issues rightly ?? Giving wrong or ill fated decisions ?? Yes, there are good moments though–like bring the old Club Europe configuration back–but these are only small success( if you can really appreciate this as success ??) comparing to such issues like implementing new fees for services which other renowned airlines dispose for free, slashing jobs, cutting salaries to save BA some money–all these to what extent / aims?? Alienating senior employees by threatening to cut pensions and ignoring long time bond to the company ??

Well–this really demoralize the staffs. And the pax–if they see such indifferent and coldness –I am not sure–but they, especially British pax, will find it heartless and dodgy that a prestigous British institiution like BA will treat British labourers like this ??

Certainly AF/KLM and LH have the same issues about saving money and struggling to maintain their budgets etc….But how did their managements tried and succeed to stabilize or balanced the situation and still convey their employees to identify or hold the loyalty to them ?? And BA not or struggling to keep the overview ??

Yes, these are all questions–but the other rival airlines or alliances manage to be seen by the general public as successful companies striving for improvements and maintaining an oversight for the future.

Where does BA stands here in the eyes of the British public ??
IF it is really W. Walsh and his team–then they have to consider the point of stepping aside in modesty and letting others to try and make it better.
Isn’t it the usual way to do, if you have failed or do not have any effective solutions left ??

[GoonerLondon]

Some further points to consider before you take your small portable gallows down to Waterside.

1) Unlike LH or AF, BA competes strongly with 2 full service domestic competitors from its own hub: BMI and Virgin

2) Unlike Frankfurt or Paris, London also is the hub of 2 major low cost carriers which have taken quite a bit of short-haul traffic

3) In light of the above, BA focused on high end business traffic, particularly transatlantic, which has been impacted significantly from current business climate – perhaps short term – perhaps not

4) Because of restrictions at LHR, and the short haul competitive issues, BA is not able to offer the same weight of hub and spoke connections as LH and AF, so certain routes – eg China become difficult to start up. LH manages twice daily (thrice daily if you count Swiss) – whereas BA manages 5 times a week only (Shanghai)

5) LH and AF have gone for the consolidation and merge approach (perhaps at any cost) – giving them further capacity.

So we are where we are. The airline is indeed in a difficult position,but I think the situation is a little more complex than some like to imagine

[Hess963]

Yes, the situation is more complex–if it is that so easy than BA and other airlines would not have such difficulties !

But those aspects you have counted only reflect that other airlines like AF/KLM and LH are able to do their best in such situations which they are confronted in their homemarket.These airlines certainly have tough competition and being eyed as well from the EU executive not to breach the Anti-trust treaty etc.

Their managements have seen possibilities to improve or solve problems better and approach those issues properly and successfully inorder to survive or exists decently. It is just obvious that the BA management is not performing that well–comparing to their LH or AF/KLM counterparts regarding those issues spoken before.

It is for everyone apparent that those in Waterside already have or started to build their own gallows–when it is for a normal frequent flyer like me–it is already obvious that such ventures happening in Waterside are definitely not successful–what will those “responsable persons” think of themselves ?? Ah..yes..exactly !!!

[dutchyankee]

Well Stated Gooner! The issues BA encounters are much different versus the monopolistic situations that both KLM/AF and LH enjoy. Mark will always blame Walsh for everything for personal reasons, and for some part he may be right, but you can not throw it all at Walsh’s feet. BA crew are some of the highest paid if not the highest paid in the industry, BA faces much stiffer competition in her home market than either KLM/AF or LH do and the EU authorities are notoriously biased in their approval process and anti-trust legislation when it comes to BA and the continental carriers. Why is it that not an eye is batted when LH can team up with UA and others in the STAR alliance locking up over 80% of all transatlantic traffic from FRA, and even more from regional German airports, and the same holding true for KLM out of Schiphol with their SKYTEAM associates and AF out of CDG, but when BA tries to enjoy the same privilege with a tie up with AA, third request still pending approvals, it is met with demands of relinquishing slots at LHR (and the end result still would be less than 50% of the transatlantic market exit LHR). The playing field is not fair and should be taken into consideration when everyone so easily puts all the balme on Walsh. I am doubtful any of you would be able to do much better.

And for those of you making LH seem so saintly, they have been invited in to buy failing airlines by the resepctive governments as they are too frightened of a national carrier going under (in the case of SWISS for a second time). If LH was doing so well, why was it recently reported that they are seeking offers for all of BMI. They need liquidity just as all the carriers do, but jump at opportunities to buy on the cheap as they have done repeatedly, quite possibly to their future peril.

As for KLM/AF, those who think this is a well managed monolith are in fantasy land. There is so much bad will and antagonism between the two carriers, and the managers of each side, that an implosion is very likely. AF crew strike regularly (not something happy staff would do), and as far as the 60% of LCY is concerned, speak to the people at VLM which AF bought for a song recently which has given them the 60% in merger with CitiJet, about what a great company and pleasure AF is to have as your master. I can assure you the same comments are being made about AF that have been said here about BA and some comments are much worse.

Times are tough, and tough decisions need to be made. Unfortunately staff will feel the pain, and unreasonable demands from Unions can easily become the death-knell of an airline (just look to the USA to see how many majors were killed by unreasonable or unrealistic unions). BA’s problems do not solely stem from Willie Walsh, but more from a legacy of decisions made throughout the history of the airline. And God Help Us if BA goes under, then what would we fly??? VS??? Please!!

[Senator]

Hi,

Many valid points in this discussion. One that perhaps support my earlier point is that BA carries a lot of legacy issues; pension being the biggest. Neither AF/KLM nor LH have to deal with this.

Now, I am a pretty big fan of LH and BA, so my views are perhaps biased. However, I have also worked with several LH subsidaries over the last couple of years and I have been impressed with how LH operates. One must admire their work with LX; turning this around has been a feat. The verdict is out on SN and OS.

In regards to BMI, the wavering is perhaps from how they were forced into this situation. Sir Michael played his card well, and LH had no legal room to move away. Once they owned 80%, the remaining 20% was bought for a pitance of £19m. Now, that values BMI at £95m owning 11% of slots at LHR. Keep in mind, DL paid UA $100m for two pairs of slots. There could also perhaps be a M&A fatigue at LH as well.

LH has much of the same issue in FRA as BA has at LHR. With 2 runways, FRA is also at capacity.

[Author]

Posts