[DisgustedofSwieqi]

VK

There is a reference in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8210657/Big-freeze-Britons-trapped-on-planes-at-Heathrow.html

Also, BAA’s info about snow and ice clearance, no mention of deicing aircraft.

Here is a You Tube video of an Aviance branded deicer at LHR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJziY9yEJN8

[VintageKrug]

Ah, interesting. Good to see some evidence, as it wasn’t at all clear to me.

Just a sidenote about how severely and swiftly the weather changed is this VSA340, stranded on the runway earlier today:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1392.snc4/164468_468283896236_642836236_6197444_3770968_n.jpg

[BAdboys]

VK…just spoken to my BA 747 Captain mate and he assures me that usually deicing is done by an operators handling agent, not the airport company, unless the airport company is also the handling agent. In BAs case all their deicing at LHR and LGW is done by BA itself…..and, he adds ”not very efficiently at LHR”! The delays are costing BA a fortune.

So it looks as though this is a BA T5 inhouse problem that has to be addressed. Openfly has opened a can of worms that should rightly be made public.

[skychai]

BA are seeking staff volunteers to assist ground staff at T5 due to the weather chaos

Bad weather at Heathrow was forecast a week ago, yet BA still sent out ground staff, dispatchers and ramp workers as Volunteer Cabin Crew on flights to keep their aircraft recency licenses.

So you want to have volunteers to work as crew in case of further strike action, but BA send them on familiarisation flights knowing that bad weather was on the way and all available manpower would be needed at Heathrow.

So Willie, are you looking for an elusive flight dispatcher or tug driver? Try Cairo, because that’s where 3 volunteers a day are being sent, as well as Vancouver, Miami, Doha, not to mention the destinations in the EU.

[T5resident]

To be clear, de-icing BA flights at LHR is BA’s responsibility; it is the responsibility of the ground handling agent here, and they act as their own agent.

The problem is a combination of insufficient capacity and poor process design (both BA issues), compounded by a restrictive planning permission regime (presumably a local government / BAA issue) which does not permit an at-runway de-icing station.

Some first hand observations, many of which are supported elsewhere here:

– Remote deicing is superior to on-stand (as used at LHR), as it both frees up stand space (always at a premium at T5) and reduces the risk of a second trip round the process

– BA deicing capacity is restricted in terms of number of crews (typically look to be 3 or 4 teams working in parallel) and in terms of throughput speed (longhaul deice process takes around 20-25 minutes, due to the ‘lightweight’ kit used). The maths is obvious: BA look to have capacity at T5 of around 10-15 longhaul planes p.h., versus a timetabled schedule several times that.

– A deicing truck apparently has a capital cost IRO $500k each, suggesting that acquiring insufficient capacity to deal with the known timetable is shortsighted of BA. The capacity issue would inevitably and obviously lead to problems of this nature. I cannot imagine that there is a positive business case for this, given the exceptionally high cost of cancelling a day’s flying.

I remain sympathetic to BA under many circumstances and believe they work hard to provide a service out of a very compromised hub. However, in my eyes, this is a significant error which is mostly of their own making.

[Stowage222]

So in summary T5resident, the BA beancounters at Waterside have done the maths and decided that minimal investment/maximum disruption is the chosen ratio?

[fastphil]

The issue is not de-icing but de-snowing. BA and other’s processes work well for de-frosting but add an inch or six of snow and the volume of de-icing fluid needed goes up 40 fold.
Try ‘de-snowing’ your car with de-icing spray and see how many aerosols you need…..
In addition, heavy snow falls in the middle of the day at LHR (when most of the long haul fleet are on the ground) has always created chaos in my 40 yrs experience. Not only do the airline need to de-snow many widebodies but the BAA need to clear the stands (almost impossible when occupied by aircraft).

[RogerVictor]

This isn’t true. Large aircraft can be de-iced on stand but the problem in T5 is stand congestion (yup, even in a brand new terminal). What they have done is organise a procedure where select aircraft are moved off the stand to allow other aircraft to park. These selected planes are moved to a site at the southern or northern part of T5 and then ‘remote de-iced’ They can position 2 or 3 aircraft into this queue and they are de-iced in turn. It takes 25-35 minutes to de-ice each aircraft.

VK – It is the airline or the handling agents responsibility to de-ice a plane. The de-icing fluid has a ‘hold over time’ This is indefinite if there is no snow. If there is snow it can range from 15-20 minutes depending on the concentration of fluid used. Can you imagine trying to organise the logistics of an operation where it takes 35 minutes to de-ice and the minimum of 15 minutes to taxi out to the runway – if it’s snowing you’ve got 5 minutes to get airborne. Almost impossible.

I agree it’s a shambles. A business decision by the airlines and the BAA was taken that it would be cheaper to accept the ‘once in 10 years storm and associated delays’ than to invest in the equipment needed. If they spent the money on specialised equipment it could sit and rust for 10 years. Looks like a bad choice now.

[MarcusUK]

The “once in 10 years” is a regular feature.

Same at the beginning of this year, and this weather we have had for the last 3 years. Airports and countries around the world, are experiencing extremes of weather whatever their expected norms. The rest are well prepared for it, they anticipate it.
The Telegraph article does indicate it is Airlines responsibility to de-ice their planes.

Stockholm was reported to have a foot of snow yet remained open. Zurich, Munich, Amsterdam, all seem very well prepared and we have all been through airports when systematic , de-icing of planes is carried out well, in much more extreme conditions. Snow blizards or ice, other countries manage to keep running, and other UK airports LCY, LGW manage better. I have taken off from Copenhagen in -24C on a propeller aircraft -they managed?

LHR remains a national disgrace, and a joke around the world. BAA clearly should replace in entirety the “Management” at LHR.They can not complain of being starved of resources with the amounts we pay to travel through there. Perhaps as has been said before on here, The Dutch or German teams should come in and take over its operations.

Travelling from Amsterdam Thurs eve, heavy snow blizards, the city canals iced over by the afternoon. Schipol had 4 de-icing stations with eight vehicles, taking 4 planes at a time, taking 10-15 minutes, with take off right after. The city canals were already iced over, yet the excellent strategy and operational procedures kick in, and all runs well. No strangling of resources, to fund profits there.

BAA have our money, and Airlines charge us enough in hidden charges to ensure they get what they need.

LHR grinds to a halt with any problem that other Airports manage. The long term strategy should be to look at a new airport as debated here many times. It has grown way beyond it’s capacity, and is beyond the capability of the current BAA Management. They should be shovelled aside, just like the snow they allow to accumulate for too long!

[VintageKrug]

Once in ten years is indeed “regular” but it is not frequent.

I don’t, for instance, have snow tyres and only recently invested in an ice scraper, though I do ensure I have de-icer in my car, and anti-freeze in my car’s reservoir. It’s a case of having an appropriate, proportional response to the likelihood of being affected. If I lived in Sweden, that decision would be different.

In fact if you look at snow reports for the UK, you can see that in the mid-2000s we had an extended period of snow-free winters:

http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=other;type=winthist;sess=

Stockholm and Zurich can afford to invest in large amounts of snow equipment as the incidence of snow days is considerably higher, affecting the cost-benefit equation considerably.

I do think BAA and the airlines should invest some more in snow clearing/de-icing equipment, but at the same time this has to be cost effective, and it has to be balanced against the many other demands on capex (T5, refurb of T4, T2 demolition, T5C) at a time when cash is especially tight.

As is illustrated fully, using references, AMS was just as badly affected as LHR late last week; the cancellation board I referenced was hardly evidence of being “well prepared”. Indeed if you go to their website right now http://www.schiphol.nl/index_uk.html you will see this on the Schipol homepage:

“Delays and cancellations

Due to weather conditions in Europe flights are delayed or cancelled. Please see the latest flight information on this website or contact the website of you airline. Before travelling to the airport we kindly advise you to check the latest flight information. If your flight is cancelled, please contact your airline before travelling to the airport.”

It is simply not accurate to claim that AMS was unaffected, and Frankfurt and many other European airports were similarly affected.

As ever, the above post makes sweeping demands for the wholesale sacking of a management team seem to be the typical panacea to any perceived difficulties. That approach is possibly the worst way to resolve such a problem.

LHR snow management is indeed a shambles, but this is not related in any way to the nationality of the management (BAA is a Spanish owned company, not British) as is suggested in your posts, and which most sensitive people might suggest verges on the racist.

LHR is one of the busiest airports in the world, running at capacity, on one of the relatively smallest sites, with operational restrictions (such as opening curfews) not seen at other airports. There are a number of operational, investment and managerial issues which need to be addressed, and improvements do indeed need to be made, but these are not simple changes to make.

Suggesting LHR should sack its management, invest £10m+ in snow/de-icing equipment, purchase new land and drainage systems for remote de-icing is simply unrealistic.

And MarkRoberts9 still hasn’t learned the difference between its and it’s.

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