BA captain says T5 deicing is a shambles
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at 20:19 by VintageKrug.
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openflyParticipantA few days ago I had a four hours 30 mins delay on my departure to Cape Town from LHR on BA. It was very light snow at the time.
From scheduled departure time the Captain gave many apologies for the delay and deicing shambles on BA aircraft at T5. We pushed back from the stand two hours late and then got into the queue to be deiced at a remote area on a taxiway. The engines were started and stopped 4 times as we slowly moved forward in the queue of long-haul BA aircraft. The Captain went on to explain that we had to be deiced away from the terminal, due to a T5 design problem, unlike other terminals at LHR, where aircraft could be deiced quickly in place on stand before a normal departure. He said that he was even more frustrated than ourselves and that this is a normal situation when T5 long-haul aircraft need to be deiced. Apparently it is permissable to deice short-haul aircraft on stand.
It would appear that one big cock-up in design is being hidden when it comes to deicing.
So there we sat, and left four and a half hours late, while all the other operators taxied passed us….deiced and almost on time!
BA should come clean on this and tell the truth.
How refreshing it was to have a captain telling the ‘truth’ and keeping us well informed. Excellent customer service from him and his crew.
18 Dec 2010
at 14:42
VintageKrugParticipantDe-icing is a shambles at LHR.
It is never clear to me whether it is BAA or BA which is responsible for de-icing; it is certainly BAA which designed T5.
In BAA’s defence, while it is not ideal that T5 faces whatever issue with deicing larger aircraft at the stands, ice and snow at LHR is very much the exception rather than the rule.
Given that smaller aircraft can be de-iced at stand, it suggests it’s simply an issue of space, and being crammed into the space between the two parallel runways there is little anyone can do about this. It would certainly be my preference to cram as many stands into a terminal for the 350 days per annum when there is no snow, rather than remove one or two stands to permit larger aircraft to be de-iced at stand on the few days per year this is required.
Further, on a flight from Dusseldorf a few days ago, the plane was de-iced remotely as you described being the case at LHR, so that procedure is not uncommon.
In fact doing it this way makes more sense as it’s probably about the most efficient way of performing this activity:
1. The truck can be kept full up of de-icing agent, near its depot
2. Trucks don’t waste time driving from stand to stand
3. It reduces the time between completing de-icing and taking off, which is obviously safer
4. It reduces the potential need to be de-iced a second time
Always good to see all sides of the story….
18 Dec 2010
at 15:24
FlyingChinamanParticipantA quick check on the Cathay Pacific UK website an hour ago showed no signs of any cancelled flights to HKG as one of my sisters was due to fly back home.
Openfly has just shed some light on this mystery! I hope the BA crew pampered you for those extra 4 1/2 hours!!!!!!
I shall remember this and avoid flying with BA in the future where bad icy weather is expected in London!!!
18 Dec 2010
at 15:29
FlyingChinamanParticipantVK: Your arguments sounded plausible BUT somehow it did not helped BA or any airlines using T5 to move the long haul flights into the air promptly or not at all.
Were all the short-haul flights left on time or with shorter delays or worst till cancelled.
T3 is spared as my sister is on her way home now!
18 Dec 2010
at 15:38
craigwatsonParticipantactually it is a benefit to de-ice remotely rather than on the stand. Depending on the type of de-icing agent used you have around 30 minutes from deicing to take off, if you miss this window even by a few minutes and even if you are #1 for take off, its back to the stand for de-icing and again the whole procedure starts again.
Remote de-icing central to runway is the most benficial due to the fact that if there are delays or unusually long queues and you have to de-ice you dont have to go back to the stand ( and remember that there may be no stands available, as the stand you just vacated most likely would have been filled).
One thing to bear in mind with T5. You either have a very short taxi or a very long taxi (which could use up most of your 30 minute window) depending on which runway is in use for departures.
18 Dec 2010
at 16:01
DisgustedofSwieqiParticipantZRH has a slick deicing operation, whereby the aircraft are treated at the hold, thus avoiding holdover problems.
They have multiple rigs and do 2/3 aircraft in parallel. AFAIK the airport operator does the deicing, whereas BAA at LHR does not and the airlines are responsible.
Of course, you need to make an investment in equipment to achieve efficient deicing.
I can only hope that BA get their fingers burned enough time with EC compensation (hard to claim weather driven cancelations, if other carriers are operating.) I currently have a summons against BA for such an instance, with lawyers on the case.
Of course, when the conditions are really bad and the airport is closed, everyone is grounded, at LHR, ZRH or elsewhere, but it is the speed of recovery that counts and you need the right kit and trained operators to achieve that.
UK air traffic has been paralyzed for two years in a row now, that cost benefit analysis must be skewing.
18 Dec 2010
at 16:15
VintageKrugParticipantDo we know for a fact that it is the airlines who own the de-icing rigs? I thought BAA was claiming it had invested £3m in new kit…?
Also, how do the smaller airlines and those with only a few rotations per week provision for de-icing?
ZRH is prone to snow, so we should expect it to be able to justify the investment in the right kit for the three or so months when snow is the order of the day – it also gives the operatives much greater experience of operating the equipment to maximise effectiveness and efficiency.
In contrast, this has been exceptional weather at LHR – there have been several years without any snow or ice issues.
18 Dec 2010
at 16:19
craigwatsonParticipantno the airlines do not have anything to do with running the de-icing operation, unless as is the case in some parts of the world they have a stake in the airport itself
18 Dec 2010
at 16:31
BAGoldcardParticipantWhilst I do not know what has happened or more importantly not happened with regard to de-icing, my flight back from Moscow in a blizzard a week ago departed from the stand and travelled a short distance to where the plane was de-iced, the Captain advised.
I could see the machine from the window and it took less than 5 minutes.
I have heard from a friend who is retired from BA, but has many friends who still work there, that there has been a shortage of the required fluid at Heathrow. Gossip perhaps…..
18 Dec 2010
at 17:17
VintageKrugParticipantI wouldn’t say it’s gossip at all…they ran out at EDI a few weeks ago, too.
It’s totally poor planning, and goes beyond incompetence, especially as this has been known about for over four days.
18 Dec 2010
at 17:20
StephenLondonParticipantBA are responsible for de-icing. It is the same guys who do the pushback, hence the nightmare de-icing usually is. Something needs to be done about it!
18 Dec 2010
at 17:21
VintageKrugParticipantIs that 100% certain? I am still unsure.
Are the trucks BA branded; it’s usually too dark to see whenever I have been de-iced at LHR.
What do the smaller airlines do for de-icing equipment?
18 Dec 2010
at 17:24 -
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