[FDOS_UK]

AisleSeatTraveller – 22/09/2015 01:58 BST

Neither BA nor FR are airlines I choose to fly (if there is an alternative), but on a professional level I am always interested in analysing strategy and execution and thus FR is an interesting case for me, due to it being a clear fit with Michael Porter’s economist oriented frameworks – in fact, he could have written the Five Forces and Generic Strategies with the company in mind (in actuality, he did not.)

This thread was started by DerekVH in support of BA and I say good for anyone who likes flying on the company.

The statistical fact seems to be (assuming the adverts are based on valid data) that Ryanair gets less complaints per million than BA and that is not BA bashing, unless one is of the view that the figures should be suppressed and free competition subdued.

[FDOS_UK]

NTarrant – 21/09/2015 21:49 BST

Hi Nigel, I’m back in the UK after nearly 10 years – enjoying it – how is Riyadh?

You make a very good point about Ryanair customer demographics and I think that aligns with my comment about the company training its pax in their low expectations, ‘we don’t do customer service’ MOL once said, I believe.

On the other hand, from personal experience and anecdotal evidence on here and from Flyertalk, BA seems to prefer to throw Avios at reports of problems and this trains people to complain!

I reckon Martyn Sinclair has flown the equivalent of once around the world based on various BA ‘bungs’ due to their misdemeanours, reported on the forum 😉

[AnthonyDunn]

Like some, BA is my intra-European airline of choice but, further afield, I have enjoyed the benefits of its being a part of OneWorld to try other carriers. Whilst recognising that BA has its failings, the worst I have ever experienced on BA is (relative) indifference. That would be good day on Fly’n’scare so I now avoid them like the plague. Recognising that reaction from some of his erstwhile customers, O’Blarney has at least instituted seat allocation so that the godawful elbow wielding rugby scrum of a boarding process is now a thing of the past. BA is, at least, a civilised way of getting from A to B whereas I find FR to be the very opposite.

And, from from this last weekend’s BBC R4 “Moneybox” programme, it is perfectly clear that FR continues to display contempt over High Court rulings regarding the operation of EU261. After the substantial fines levied on BA (amongst others) for cargo price fixing, I would like to see a comparable stance taken towards FR for its stance over the delayed flights directive. Perhaps the prospect of Mr O’Blarney’s collar being felt by Inspector Knacker might encourage a change of view?

[AisleSeatTraveller]

I never stated that the original poster was BA Bashing (if that was implied, I apologise, sorry) and as for statistics, one can ‘prove’ anything (or at least find a correlation that may be used explain or interpret a hypothesis)

additionally we have no information about how complaints are raised, for example is it easier on BA as opposed to Ryanair (imagine it would be extremely cumbersome to register dissatisfaction) or others (Emirates & Singapore Air, for example, do not carry the form on the aircraft any more, making it more difficult & time-consuming)

the other thing to consider is that loyal customers are more likely to complain as they’d like the service on their next encounter to be better (loyalty to a LCC is unlikely as the decision to fly is not based upon intangible aspects but more on price, therefore expectation and lack of perceived loyalty may drive down complaints)

therefore, in conclusion and not supported by anything other than anecdotal information (and certainly no statistical analysis, I’ll save that for my day job) the complaints statistics, in short the statistic, in my opinion, should be taken with a pinch of salt

[FDOS_UK]

AnthonyDunn – 22/09/2015 09:09 BST

Your post reminds me how different customers have different wants and needs.

Indifference from cabin crew is pretty much what I prefer, so long as they do their job and keep me safe, feed and water me, then I’m happy.

Perhaps that’s because I fly so much that I just wish to be left in peace and quiet – with my noise cancelling headphones and either work or a good film/book.

FR are very consistent in what they do (like it or loathe it), which is why I guess I’m okay when I have to use them – I just ‘turn on (ipod), tune into the music and drop out (of all conversations!)

You obviously prefer more interaction, for a good flight experience – fair enough.

I can just imagine how that goes on FR.

AD – good morning, how are you

CC (with eastern European accent) – you want meal or drink?

AD – a G&T please – lovely day for flying

CC – fife euroz feefty cents

etc…… fair comment AD 🙂

[icenspice]

@rferguson

I can understand complaints related to baggage handling and IFE, but am surprised to see ‘delays’ at the top, even taking into account congestion at LHR.

And welcome home FDOS. I hope you and your family are settling back in well.

[FDOS_UK]

AisleSeatTraveller – 22/09/2015 09:20 BST

I very much doubt a company would be able to advertise something like this on TV if the base data was less than solid – the ad agency would resign rather than lose their reputation.

You can spin the ads anyway you want, but the fact is (according to the OP) that FR state they receive less complaints per million than BA.

There are many reasons why this may be the case, of which you state a few, NTarrant has made a very good point and I’ll add

– FR delivers a more consistent experience than BA, so people know what to expect, accept it as reasonable value for money and don’t complain

– FR have not incentivised complaints, to my knowledge, thus conditioning people to complain

– FR flights tend to be very cheap, people are probably more accepting of low service levels and inconsistencies (although he service model is simple and easier to deliver in the same way)

– FR have a good on time departure record – that’s a huge complaint generator for other airlines

– FR lose few bags (because they don’t carry that many and don’t interline)

– FR is a simple business, short-medium haul, point to point, one class, one aircraft type – expectations are easy to set and service easy to deliver/ low complexity, with no discretion

– BA is a complex business, short to ultra long haul, often with connections, up to four classes, multiple fleets with sub-fleets – expectations often set by marketing puffery or previous experience (with personnel/crew not always following service standards, which then annoys people later)

So it is not an ‘apples versus apples’ comparison, but both are airlines and one seems to generate more complaints per million than the other.

Edited for typos.

[FDOS_UK]

icenspice – 22/09/2015 09:35 BST

Thanks! Much appreciated.

WRT to BA’s punctuality as a complaint driver, the firm is in the process of retiring some older aircraft and replacing them with newer models and because of the age of some of the fleet, certain types need more maintenance and also encounter more tech problems (BTW, no implication on safety, just more prone to causing tech delays.)

I would expect BA’s punctuality to improve over the next few years as the fleet average age drops.

[canucklad]

There is another glaringly obvious reason why Ryanair don’t receive as many complaints……

Demographics certainly play a part as NTarrant as alluded to……..although I don’t consider myself falling into that particular implied demographic……

Would I complain to Ryanair……absolutely not ….Why?
Because I KNOW that they just don’t have it in them to respond favourably, so what’s the point !!!

[FDOS_UK]

Canucklad

“Because I KNOW that they just don’t have it in them to respond favourably, so what’s the point !!!”

Why do you feel this way, out of interest?

[FDOS_UK]

I wonder if this is the data source?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/money-saving-tips/11743659/Airlines-receive-400-complaints-a-week-how-a-new-ombudsman-could-help.html

Edited to add that these figures seem to be UK passenger complaints, only, which is why the ratios seemed wrong to me, at first glance.

Full data available here

https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=27&fld=2014

Right, let’s add a little balance.

BA is #30 out of 40 airlines for highest complaints per million – if you count ‘other airlines’ as a valid entry.

In other words, 75% of airlines in the UK received more complaints per million pax flown, than BA, which strikes me as a good performance.

Here is the list

BA 67.3
Norwegian Air Shuttle 67.1
Flybe 58.3
Aer Lingus 57
Swiss Airlines 55.5
Delta Airlines 54.9
Other airlines 52.7
American Airlines 52.2
Lufthansa 43.6
Easyjet Airline Company 42.9
Ryanair 31.9

Interesting that Lufthansa is the best performing legacy airline, roughly on a par with easyJet.

[AnthonyDunn]

@ FDOS_UK – 22/09/2015 11:08 BST

Welcome back.

If the Torygraph item refers to the data source of complaints, then I am surprised at FR’s assertion bearing in mind the reporting on “Money Box”:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06bcst6

The rubric for the programme reads:

“The Civil Aviation Authority is taking action against Ryanair for failing to pay compensation to passengers for flight delays of over three hours. Ryanair denies it is doing so. The CAA action comes a day after Europe’s top Court of Justice confirmed that airlines cannot escape their obligations to pay compensation if a delay is due to a mechanical defect with the aircraft. So will delayed passengers now get the compensation the law says they must have?”

[FDOS_UK]

Hi Anthony, thanks.

From the CAA data

BA 67.3 complaints per million
Ryanair 31.9 complaints per million

So it would appear to be a straightforward quote of the regulator’s own data.

Edited to add: it’s time the regulator clamped down on airlines avoiding their lawful responsibilities.

[TominScotland]

Alex’s fascinating report of possible tie-ups between Lufthansa & Easyjet and IAG & Ryanair puts a different gloss on the debate about legacy versus low-cost. If these partnerships do develop (in whatever form) I suspect that some of those who are ‘Never FR’ or, more generally, ‘Never low-cost’ diehards will need to change their tunes.

How such links could impact on complaints is also be interesting to speculate – if there is any form of through or linked ticketing, then that is likely to create more opportunities for things to go wrong – as we have already seen in a recent post about through check-in with Lufthansa and their wholly owned subsidiaries.

[FDOS_UK]

TominScotland – 22/09/2015 14:42 BST

You make very good points, I agree 100%

[Author]

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