Bucksnet - 27/07/2011 22:49 GMT
I don't know when it happened, but I've just seen on Skytrax that VS are now only a 3 star airline. We know who Skytrax are and what they do, but it highlights the declining standards.
I've not used them at all lately, but it is clear that things have slipped even further judging by the large number of terrible reviews posted. Their average score is now only 3.9 verses 6.4 for BA.
Can anyone who has used them lately comment?
http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/vir_atl.htm
blondcat - 27/07/2011 23:38 GMT
Had quite a few flights on Virgin this year - all pretty bad to be honest. I think the worst of them was my trip to Las Vegas (flew back to london from JFK) and both flights were awful!
On the Las Vegas leg we were in the seat behind the front row in the cabin. The people in the front row had paid the upgrade to sit there for the extra space (we know this as we could here them talking). There were quite a few stag parties on the plane who congregated at the front of the cabin right in front of us - just standing around and drinking. They were really loud and fell on top of the people in the front row more than once. The chap eventually complained and the hostesses did nothing - in fact they were flirting with the stag guys every time they went to the galley! They ran out of all drinks apart from water two hours into the flight, didn't have my preferred dinner option, and the entertainment was the old style loop system.
On the JFK return flight, the entire entertainment system broke in every cabin in the plane. When we checked in we were told there weren't 3 seats together (and we were there 3hrs before the flight) and yet when we got on the plane there were loads of spare seats we could have taken. I was asked to move twice due to "logistical issues" and the seat I ended up in didn't have a reading light - far from ideal when there's no TV.
I have flown so many times with virgin over the years, and I just feel they have lost their sparkle. My dad and his wife have over a million airmiles each and they said they now complain to virgin after nearly every flight for broken chairs, TVs not working etc etc. Might seem petty to some but when you're paying 5k for a seat you expect a decent experience.
Wont give up on them as I need to use some airmiles (also a drama as their website is pretty useless for this), but remain hopeful my next flight is a little better.
PatJordan - 28/07/2011 06:39 GMT
I don't know whether I'd put too much faith in Skytrax ratings, my experience is that they tend to be selective about which reviews they publish.
They didn't appreciate my submitting a number of (very positive) reviews of Aer Lingus which reflected my experience with the airline at that time. Surely the purpose of a review site is to do just that??
Pat
Hippocampus - 28/07/2011 07:58 GMT
I don't place much faith in Skytrax, but I think the issue with Virgin is not just the product relative to competition, but the product relative to the expectations that Virgin itself sets.
If you run slick glossy TV ad campaigns that glamourise your product and the reality is markedly different, then customers will be disappointed.
CRAIGADAMS - 28/07/2011 08:07 GMT
We had the same experience as blondcat describes on our flight to Las Vegas on Virgin. We paid the extra for the front row seats in the economy cabin which we thought would offer extra legroom. However, that space seemed to become the 'party' space as soon as the seatbelt signs were turned off. A noisy group squeezed into this space to drink and chat and were right on top of us. The cabin crew did nothing about the situation. We have not flown with Virgin Atlantic since, but I do enjoy their TV ads!
Binman62 - 28/07/2011 08:42 GMT
Virgin advertise rock star service, be trated liek a rock star...... perhaps they include the the vomit and drunks as standard.
Not an airline I have much time for and reading this confirms my fears. Vote with your feet.
Skytrax however means nothing.
Danwolf - 28/07/2011 09:29 GMT
And to think my friend was berating me yesterday evening for lumping all my Biz travel arrangements for the rest of the year with BA CW instead of VA Upper Class...
...looking at the details of the pro's and cons on airlinequality, it looks like its Virgin's economy food standards and inconsistent onboard standards (as bucksnet stated).
MarcusUK - 28/07/2011 09:40 GMT
I agree re Skytrax, with some other Airlines having a 5 Star and I found they did not match some 4* Airlines standards.
I have flown UC with them 3 times this year to Cape Town, and they far outweigh SAA for eg,. Same type of aircraft, awful service, un-interested crew, plain food, and very pretentious for little atmosphere and a poor experience compared to VS.
VS are ok in Upper Class, the ground services at LHR, (u can arrange yr own transport to the drive up check in now), lounge, security. I have a FC Gold card, so no matter which class these add benefits.
Upper Class needs a re-vamp which is in the pipeline the crew Manager's say. The bar remains a nice facility, otherwise only on other's A380's, somewhere to go to from your seat with some purpose.
But many of VS routes tend to be more tourist driven, and the new A330's do not have a business product. The cabins are in need of some updating work, but the lounges,LHR complex, cars provided, on board bar and privacy of the seat, i still value much, compared to other carriers.
RichHI1 - 30/07/2011 09:35 GMT
Ah good old Air Maplin - Gave up on them when they switched from 744's on majority of routes as suites shrank by 2-3 inches. Upstairs on 744 was very good value with First Class length seat for Business money. Not any more. Also found the pruple lighting and the glitter ball a bit Essex. (Apologies for being parochial and Essexist but I think UK readers will follow).
For once, I agree with Hippocampus. I think Skytrax ratings are for the birds but in this case the direction if not the degree make more sense than normal - Ready for my lobotomy now, doc...
rferguson - 30/07/2011 12:48 GMT
It's probably worth mentioning that the star rating is derived from an in depth annual audit from skytrax. Passenger reviews and rating give no weight at all.
rferguson: Interesting information.
But if the passengers' reviews carries no weight then it is more like the hotel star rating system in Europe whereby adding a uninviting bar, a tiny health club and a bad restaurant would give them extra stars.
Surely the customers know best and go for the best service/value carriers.
Skytrax has its flaws but it is the best currently available.
It's detractors should focus on addressing the message rather than shooting the messenger.
No other survey comes close by a factor of 100 in terms of sample size, geographic spread and independence.
Which survey/award body do others regard as a better benchmark?
That's the very point, CallMeIshmael; Skytrax passenger reviews are not taken into account in the ranking process, so the number of reviews is not the sample size employed.
Since Skytrax do not publish their methodology in the public domain, it is impossible to draw more than broad conclusions from their subjective rankings.
As long as they refrain from publishing their methodology, which they have every right to do, then they open themselves to questioning about how rigorous and objective it may be. Fuel is added to the fire when regular passengers question the relative rankings of certain carriers whose positions in the ranking seem to be at odds with the generally-expressed user consensus.
JD Power would not, and could not, get away with such opacity.
With reference to Bucksnet's concerns, and having read Virgin reviews for many years, I don't see a sudden change in levels of reported satisfaction - the things people continue to praise and complain about are largely similar. Recent cancellations and irrops might be having an impact, but it's too soon for that to have fed through into any third party measurement system.
As cabins become older and more worn, there are more comments about poor cosmetic maintenance - but that's the same for Singapore Airlines and they apparently retain a '5-Star' rating.
Perhaps, then, Virgin should never have been a '4-Star' airline, but we'll never know as long as the audit specification remains secret.
I will declare a non-interest here; I am a Virgin Gold Flying Club Member and have been for a number of years, but I have never set foot on one of their aircraft. Which is probably as odd as Skytrax ratings.
Bucksnet - 30/07/2011 14:42 GMT
CC, you say you don't see a sudden change in levels, but the reviews I've read have been getting worse with a lot more scores of 0-3 than before, with of course the odd 7-10.
It is telling that their average score is now 3.9 whereas before I think it was well over 6.
Of course these are only peoples opinions and they may be some who try to rig the results up or down, but I'm sure Skytrax try to block those people from doing so.
From an award perspective Skytrax state -
Voted by over 18.8 million airline passengers from 100 different nationalities, the World Airline Awards™ are the most prestigious and respected quality recognition of front-line product and service standards across the world airline industry. With 200 airlines featured, the awards reflect customer satisfaction levels across 38 different items of airline front-line product and service.
then..
The Trusted & Respected Airline Awards
Known as the Passengers Choice awards and based on the Skytrax global, independent passenger survey of airline standards. Unlike some "pay-to-win" award companies (many probably know who they are!), these independent awards are :
not subscriber based / airlines do not pay to be included
not limited to a selected number of airlines
not limited to a selected geographical region
not profit-driven (yes, for once ethics wins out over profit!)
not part of a "self-interest" award program
not based on a pay-to-attend Awards ceremony
not driven by any associated or resultant advertising
not sponsored or influenced by any third party
http://www.worldairlineawards.com
Am not aware how the voting occurs let alone how the results are formulated and the influence on star ratings, however having 18million votes/observations is undoubtably statistically significant.
Yes, this is the award and not the rating as is the primary discussion point of this thread.
CC, is there a better or more representative ratings body/award in the industry?
My apologies, Bucksnet. I didn't really mean Skytrax passenger reviews - I rather meant those posted on other sites like Flyertalk and here at Business Traveller; ones which don't have a manual post-approval system and where it's easier to get a feel for the posters' posting history and generic position with regard to what they find 'good' and 'bad'.
There have been cases reported, here I believe, where submissions to Skytrax have not been published, when the review is reported to have been somewhat at odds with the relevant carrier's contemporaneous star ranking.
Of course, any credible website would have a system for trying to weed out overly-positive or negative reviews in case of attempted sabotage by carriers or competitors, but again, since Skytrax won't enter into any kind of discussion on the subject, they can't really expect unquestioning acceptance of their results.
As they themselves say on their site "We respectfully suggest to any site users that do not agree with our Editorial Policy, that you have the choice to discontinue visiting our web site."
Which, broadly, is a suggestion that I'm more than happy to accept.
I should perhaps also declare an interest in customer-satisfaction rating systems. I have, for my sins, had rather a lot of experience in their design, delivery and attempted corruption. Managing a robust one is a good deal harder than it may look!
From a technical point-of-view, I'm afraid that there's absolutely nothing 'statistically-significant' about '18 million votes/observations'.
Unless we can verify the submissions, unless the submissions are made within a time frame which bears relevance to the judgements, unless we understand the voting and measuring methodology then neither we, nor indeed they, can make any statistically-significant observations.
However, by their own admission, it's not these submissions which inform the ratings:
"It is the Quality Analysis system that ranks airline product and service standards, based upon professional evaluation conducted by our in-house airline audit specialists. Before an official Star Rating level is determined and awarded, SKYTRAX audit office carries out a detailed Quality analysis across more than 800 different areas of product and service delivery."
Whilst we may agree with some of their rankings, this does not in anyway confer a level of statistical or even ethical credibility on the system employed - just as any disagreement doesn't prove that there's any partisan activity afoot.
However, in statistics, absolutes are imperative and, in the absence of them, there can be no conclusion.
And, from a professional point of view, neither I nor any of my peers could get away with a position like Skytrax's in delivering actionable data and results to our employers/clients.
I've never flown VS but thanks to the ads I've been tempted to try them, even though it's a bit inconvenient for me, and no through booking possible from Lugano or Milan. However sterlings weakness has now made the fare more competitive, but several of my friends who have flown VS say don't bother, BA is much better, though they are streets ahead of SAA?
I do use the lounge in JNB though as Swiss have an agreement with VS for their F passengers and it is fantastic.
Bullfrog - 31/07/2011 08:15 GMT
@continentalclub
I must be missing the point .. how do you become Gold with Flying Club & have never set foot on a VS aircraft ?
I have been flying Virgin for about 15 years, and the quality of service has certainly diminished over the last 5 years.
