[Bunnahabhain]

Yeah Flybe have now started the trim sensitive announcement on the Dash 8-400 too, but it’s only during their headcount before taxi – once airborne they will let you move seats. I thought all aircraft no matter what size were trim sensitive, and the trim wheel on the flight deck was there to keep the trim in balance as crew and passengers moved about the cabin during flight. On one of the ITVV flight deck DVDs the pilot explains the concept of trim in detail.

They operated both the Embraer 190/195 and Dash 8-400 for some time before this announcement started so it must be for some other reason – the cleaning one is fair enough and as Martyn says we wouldn’t have a problem with that, it helps the punctuality of the next sector if arrival is behind schedule.

So would they still make the trim announcement if the flight was full?

[MartynSinclair]

This blog started with the question “why are budget airlines so successfull”. Very interesting question but obviously one of the answers is not honesty, integrity and professionalism – otherwise Ryan Air would not be in the position they are. It seems that the only thing people look at is the ticket price ticket price ticket price. So Ryan Air can advertise £1 fares, but the reality is that pax are treated worse than animals going to the slaughter house and the end price, in terms of time, lugage costs, inflight food/entertainement and airport accessability is quite often a lot more.

Easy Jet on the other hand has a much better name and even though Stelios has now stepped down or is stepping down at least i dont have to check the sky to see if it is light when he says it is still day time.

Hence why Ryan Air is off the radar as far as my firms busienss travel is concnered.

[MarcusUK]

I certainly used to use Ryanair for more unusual destinations, & before the tax hikes & Surcharges from the UK, they really did offer value for money. Now i don’t think they do. The back up on reliability just isnt good enough to ensure a busy schedule goes smoothly.

I recall the days when KLMUK dominated the international terminal at STN (they completely had the decor to celebrate with the KLM Blue & swans), & they flew to most major EU cities.
But i book my flights well ahead & use either LCY or LHR (only as a must with a hotel eve before), & with one ways now on Cityjet very reasonable, great value.
Amsterdam £90 returns wit 20 flights a day from LHR /LCY, & Lisbon Budapest mostly in the EU for around £139. Benefit from Schipol, great lounges, match my gold membership of 30 flights a yr, & miles.

In this way, & with the add ons & standards of the seating on low cost, I dont use Easyjet or Ryanair anymore.

I am however, intrigued at Premium economy being developed Long haul, & some low cost Airlines, having premium seats like AirAsiaX. This will indeed be a growth Area & an business opportunity. A decent seat to sleep long haul, modern aircraft most important for me, especially at 1/3rd of the price (eg STN – KUL on AirAsiaX).

I think the bandwagon of Airport taxes, fuel surcharges, & Government UK Taxes have damaged low cost travel from the UK, & the gap between full service Airlines & them is practically nil with cost now…

[PaulJennings]

A very interesting question Cedric. I think you gave at least part of the answer yourself: ‘the travelling public has made Price the single most important determinant of deciding on their choice of airline’.

The difference between airlines and restaurants etc. is that air travel (or at least short-haul frequent air travel) is now seen by many consumers as a commodity – in other words they don’t perceive any differentiation between the products offered by the different providers, and therefore aren’t willing to pay for what airlines would like to describe as a premium product.

And every time a legacy carrier does something to reduce service quality (either to try to contain costs, to try to compete on price or out of sheer incompetence) the message is reinforced.

There is a race to the bottom and ultimately the passenger loses something along the way.

If Easyjet were truly smart they would now introduce reserved seating and a business class – lite service and would probably clean up.

[TominScotland]

Just enjoyed two painless EZY flights this weekend to Gatwick, back from Luton, both arrived early with a minimum of fuss. I agree with those who put FR bottom of the pile but, as I said in an earlier post, sometimes there are few options if you live away from London. A very good point was made in an earlier post – yes, you can get caught by budget airline rules in terms of luggage, time etc. but its the same as with life generally, those who learn the rules quickly, don’t get into trouble!!

On pricing and to be fair to FR, I have recently bought a host of tickets ranging from 2p to £3.99 return inclusive of all extras from them – many more than the times I have paid more than BA etc. Their average inclusive cost is way, way lower than even budget rivals (BE are the worst for cost in fact). Yes, again, you can get caught out on price but you do have a choice – don’t press the “Buy” button!!

[lloydah]

MichelAngelo, you echo the feelings of many people with your last remark. My wife said, last time we took EZY together, “If they only booked seating and we didn’t have to rush to get 2 seats together….” for many, knowing where your’e sitting is as important as knowing you have a seat. I think that would certainly bring in more pax.

[TominScotland]

Iloydah – you might be right about pre-booked seats but this route also creates significantly increased cost for the airline and, ultinmately, for consumers. The evidence is also that free seating allows a faster turn around, reducing overall costs as well. The choice is ours……

[PaulJennings]

Fair point. There is also evidence that having reserved seating will attract new customers and boost ancillary revenues, even if reserved seats were only available in the front few rows of each flight.

[craigwatson]

The thing about Mass and Balance is it is normally done before hand on the load sheet, on a full plane its never going to matter, the same on an empty plane, but on low cost carriers with no pre assigned seating, you Have to regulate where pax sit, at least during take off and landing, so such an issue in flight as you can trim for pax movement, but you have to set the Stab Trim before take off, and if you have everyone sitting in the front rows, that may not leave enough margin for safety. There have been accident investigations that have determined that 1 (1 of many usually) of the causes was cargo incorrectly stored to far forward/aft.

[craigwatson]

And to be fair to FR. if you are travelling with carry on only, and just looking for a last minute city break they are quite good. I have only used them twice but no problems, and no extra charges..( although i was travelling with an infant so get free priority boarding..and they were one of the most child friendly airlines ive flown with). You can get dates with no taxes payable ( or last trip to rome was £39.98 each with a £10 card processing fee, and £20 return for our daughter. so £110 all in for 3 of us return, BA was over £400). and during the booking process they are VERY transparent about HAVING to have your boarding pass pre printed, and about baggage weight.

[AMcWhirter]

Many interesting comments here but largely made on the passenger experience.

To get a real insight into why budget carriers are profitable, we need to look at their business model which is quite different to that of conventional carriers. Although the latter now copy certain aspects of the budget carriers’ way of doing business.

Consider that:

* They are creative in dealing with airports and driving down handling fees and so on. Before the days of Ryanair, which carrier would have had the audacity to ask an airport to pay it for the privilege of landing (rather than the other way round) ?

* Simple one-way fares with tiered pricing. Easy for the average passenger to understand and useful for a budget airline to manipulate its yield. Simpler fares also mean the carriers can maintain simpler, less expensive to operate and speedier websites.

* Direct selling. Cut out the middle man, avoid agency commission control your own marketing.

* Sophisticated pricing systems which constantly adjust fares according to supply and demand. Conventional carriers tend to have cruder systems which increase prices substantially (thus frightening away potential customers) within three days of travel, irrespective of how busy the flight is.

* Simple products mean there’s no need to spend millions on FFP schemes, membership of IATA or an airline alliance.

* Flying point-to-point means they avoid the cost and complexity of a) having to split revenue with another carrier and b) having to worry about and having to compensate passengers when bags are lost in transit.

* Clever buying of planes. Remember the deal which Ryanair secured from Boeing for its B737s in the aftermath of 9/11 ? It was a time when airplane orders dried up but Ryanair, unlike its conventional rivals, showed confidence in the future of air travel during those dark days and Boeing rewarded it with a huge discount.

* The raising of cash through ancillary fees. Check Ryanair’s revenue for the past year and you’ll see that ancillary fees earnt it over £500 million.

* Developing an entirely new market. Budget carriers have opened up routes previously neglected by the big airlines.

* Taking away lots of passengers from the charter airlines by moving into the regional market.

* Getting to the stage where you have a monopoly so you can better control your revenue. Look at Ryanair’s Europe-wide route network (I say, Europe-wide, because Ryanair probably sources more passengers from mainland Europe than it does from the UK) and see how little competition it faces on an airport-to-airport basis.

* Driving your costs down so low that no conventional rival dare compete with you. Indeed Ryanair’s costs are so low that not even a fellow budget carrier would take it on.

[MartynSinclair]

London City – you are corredct, but it doesnt change the fact that there is a choice. Where FR are concnered i would prefer an extra 2 hours in a car to an alternative airport, of which there are now many. Sooner or later i beleive the CAA will close or censure Ryan Air – bit thats just a personal opinion. Is thre any truth in the fact that their pilots have to buy their own unifrm and pay for aprt of their training???

The C og G argument is interesting, but i know that a pax changing 1 row forward will not affect the stab trim. In fact the FMC can recalculate pretty quickly and the results take seconds to reload.
next………….

[binabdulaziz]

Mr MartynSinclair

Some airline use so called ‘simplified’ loadsheet, he has standard seats for different numbers of people.

So if some many are carried, block off rows “a to c”, if some many less, “a-c and x-z.”

So not actual trim calculation, but standard model for suit airlines convenience, agreed with inspectors and easy training for staff.

At least this this true in Gulf.

[craigwatson]

Martyn. as to your last paragraph, you are correct, but only once airborne. obviously 1 pax 1 row forward is not a problem, but 70 pax all in the first 13 rows would be a big problem on take off, you would be operating with the stab trim already near the limits, thereby reducing your options incase of an emergency on take off.

In response to your first para, i was offered an interview with FR, but turned it down, as they charged £150 to interview me, plus £22000 for the 737-8NG type rating, at the the time i could not afford to get a job with FR….. Pilots have to pay for bottled water, food in flight, uniforms.. etc.. you get nothing for free. Although there starting pay is one of the worst in the business, but after about 3 years, they are the highest paying airline in Europe for pilots… if you can last 3 years.. a couple guys i know that fly with them were sleeping in there cars at the airport the night before there flights ( due to a strange rostering system where for so many days a month you have to base out of a different base from your home base, but get no extra pay for living allowance)

[MartynSinclair]

Dear Craig, well done you turnign Ryan Air down. these are things the travelling public need to know as to the fitness of Ryan Air as an employer and the abiltiy of the pilots to perform. Paying for a type rating through bonding is acceptable but having to pay to be interviewed is something i have never heard of before. It a pity that Ryan Air pilots dont decide enmasse to ditch the scrambled eggs and turn up in jeans and t shirts, mind you O’Leary will probably love the publicity. I remember flying an Gulfstream 4 in civies at the clients request and did have some funny looks in the middle east for a refuel stop.

Bottom line re budget airlines, is that if pax new the truth, they would probably avoid the sharks like FR in favour of a slightly higher cost. I would certainly be cautious of any airline where hte pilots couldnt afford a hotel room the night before and were sleeping in their cars. The water issue is a basic health issue as you well know. Dehydration is an effect of flying, shame on FR and shame on O’Learly. Perhaps if he got the BJ’s he offered his exec class px, he woul dbe a happier man!

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