[Anonymous]

[RichHI1]

Ina separate thread, someone asked how come LH can make money and QF cannot. This caused me to think about the differences between airlines and their premium product.

Looking at First Class travel, as I am fortunate enough to normally travel this way, I have noticed a distinct difference between carriers in their first class passengers.

As a Passenger one is not able to tell whether they are on full fare tickets, discounted tickets or miles but one can tell the types.

The folowing is a broad generalization from my experience, I would be glad to hear other’s experience.

AA, UA, QF, JL and BA tend to have a much higher proporton of Business Travellers travelling on Company time whereas AF, CX, LH, LX and JJ had a much higher ratio of private pax to business Travellers.

If one takes into account that airlines offer heavily discounted premium fares to big corporations for guaranteed route volume and other commitments and also offer free upgrades to key VIP’s is the revenue baance part of the answer with regard to LH and QF?

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Another question would be how many are revenue pax v non revenue (or staff travel which is revenue, Jim, but not as we know it.)

[RichHI1]

FFB tickets are I guess non Revenue whatabout invol and vol upgrades? I amazed by the threads saying BA invol upgrade paxx at Check In. On Transtlantic Flights there are normally far more requests for vol upgrade on miles or evips on AA that I have never heard of an invol upgrade (other Airline Management and VIP’s of course).

[MartynSinclair]

Rich, what angle are you coming from here, this has been discussed and thrashed to death so many times:

How to upgrade
Staff travel
Free Seats

business and first. I guess the only area it has not been discussed is Y class but there again, there is very little chance of that discussion on this forum.

The profitable of any class is down to Pricing – Offering – Way its bought to market , as well as how the business is run.

Strange as it may seems, passengers buying tickets is the end process, so in order for an airline to make money in F, it has to be a good model BEFORE the ticket gets to market!

[LuganoPirate]

I agree, it has to be a good product especially if you’re buying your own ticket. This is what drives me to Swiss, consistency. I read so much about BA’s inconsistent service, mixed fleet crews, strikes, NF and OF etc that I won’t risk spending my £5,000 odd with them unless I have no choice.

I know what to expect with Swiss and that is consistently good service with an easy to transit hub at Zurich.

The rule with Swiss is not to upgrade so the cabin is mostly fare or mileage passengers, though I suspect the rule is sometimes broken.

On the JNB run the F cabin is usually half full with suits from Xstrata, though never Mick Davis, he has use of the Company Falcon!

[RichHI1]

Martyn my angle, which I must not have expressed very well, is
“is there a substantial difference in the type of passenger in First Class between Carriers and does this affect proftiability”

i.e. if an airline has a large number of corporate fliers whose companies get heavily discounted fares then the revenue may be lower than if an airline has a mix of personal fliers flying on full fare tickets as well as a smaller percentage of corporate clients.

I am not looking at how to upgrade, I am not concernd about Staff Travel and I am not looking at Free tickets. My interest is the difference between the type of traveller each carrier attracts in First, which will be a mix of the brand image of the carrier and the socio econmic make up of the countries which that carrier is based in and serves.

Does that convey it better?

Do LH have more private rich passengers paying full fare out of their own pocket than say BA or do QF have more corporate pax in first on discounted tickets than say JJ (TAM Brazil for those unfamiliar) who have small first cabins and a lot of very very wealthy private pax (whose helicopters meet them at GRU! – I have been invited on them many times but I am not fond of rotary wing aircraft particularly in the most congested helicopter market in the world..)

LP you make a good point that this will vary by route.

[NTarrant]

This is an interesting question Rich. I think we know that say an Easyjet flight between LGW and EDI will contain more private than corporate passengers, whereas a BA LGW-EDI flight will probably contain more corporate or business travellers.

That of course is looking at Y only. An interesting one would be LHR-HKG where there is CX, BA and QF on direct flights

[MartynSinclair]

Passengers surely give their business to the airlines of personal choice.

Why they choose any particular airlines will be down to schedule, price, service and branding.

[stevescoots]

bang on the money Martyn

[NTarrant]

I would agree Martyn to a point. If a person is paying for themselves then it is their choice and there would be more factors than those you mention.

What Rich is asking is the split between those that pay for themselves that are travelling for reasons other than business by airline. Other than the scenario I give, it would be difficult to find out the answer to Rich’s question

[Bucksnet]

Martyn, you say that ‘the only area it has not been discussed is Y class but there again, there is very little chance of that discussion on this forum’ but most business travel is in Y class.

According to official CAA figures, some 69% of long haul business travellers from the UK fly in economy.

[MartynSinclair]

Bucksnet, I wont argue with those figures, my comment was directed toward the travelling choices of this forum, I would suggest that 85% of contributors here, fly business or first.

Nigel, I am not sure I would agree with your comment re Easy Jet verses BA on the LGW – EDI route based, on how full the early morning/late afternoon flights are with lap top carrying passengers.

If the First or Business passenger can not fly direct to their destination, I am sure that the easiest connecting flights also take a large part of the choice process.

[Bucksnet]

I’m sure 100% of us would choose business or first instead of economy, the trouble is that usually someone else is paying and company travel budgets are tighter than they were.

[RichHI1]

I see a lot of debate that contrasts behaviour within a carrier or a country. KLM dropped First because the Dutch as a nation do not like to stand out. When Cellphones were introduced you never saw them in Holland until everyone could afford them and suddenly they were everywhere. There are rich people in Holland but when travelling KLM they chose not to travel First either for cultural considerations or for reasons of value for money. LH continues a First CLass service and Germans as a nation are less concerned about ostentation and are happy to buy very expensie cars or travel first class if they can afford it and feel it is value for money.
My question in essence is are the benaviour patterns and hierarchies of needs different in different places resulting in different revenue pattterns due to high levels of corporate discounting.
The reason why i focussed on First or Business is that personal flyers in Coach or Economy have often purchased bargain basement tickets the same as corporations do and as such the revenue effect is less.

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