[Anonymous]

[PaulJennings]

A positive thread:

What would you like to see in short-haul business class? And who does it best?

I’ll start by suggesting:
– separate check in desk at the airport
– nice lounges with non-junk food and drink, magazines and newspapers, pcs and wifi, office-type area and quiet zone with comfy chairs.
– priority boarding
– more personal space on board (I’m happy with an empty seat next door, I’m not asking for flat beds here)
– either a partition or a movable curtain so you feel as if you are in a separate cabin
– pre-reserved seats

[Hess963]

Hi everyone !!

for short haul C class product–I can only refer to CX, TG, SQ….mostly Asian carriers and within their Southeast Asian destinations. Comparing to European carriers with their European destinations–those Asian carriers are far more better. You have all what MichelAngelo has stated–in those Asian carriers already( perhaps not the movable curtain). Just take TG which is busy implementing new aircrafts( A330-300) with lie flat seats used within short haul flights. Actually for me the services and facilities ( both on the ground and up in the air ) used by Asian carriers within their short haul flights are already great ! I always see myself comparing the LHR-FRA vv to HKG- TPE vv . The latter is shorter from duration but it has full food&beverage services in those airlines operating this route–it always amazes me how for example CX FAs just accomplish a full 30 seater C cabin or more a nd give a full service within this short time–kudos !
I never experienced that within a short haul flight similar in flying time in Europe ! Another point–in Europe you are seating in a 3-3 abreast seats with the middle seat as blocked for one’s convenience. The Asian carriers have real wide C class seatings. And if you are lucky–some carriers like TG or EK offers F class flights for short haul flights from BKK to HKG for an affordable fare. I do not need to go further..that you do not have something similar within flights in Europe/Russia/North Africa.

The pax attitude towards flying in premium cabins is one factor–Asian people just pay the fare for flying premium products and like to fly in style while Europeans tend to question the reason in paying a high fare for a short flight duration. Asians are mostly pretty demanding in expecting absolute great services and the accompanying attitudes towards guests. Europeans tend to ignore inconviences and just hope to overcome it as the flight is short and often don’t bother to state this inconveniences as we just don’t fly that airline again.

This is my own opinion and from my own experiences–this is not a generalization of Asians and Europeans flying short haul in their respective continents.

[VintageKrug]

“Far more better.”

Or just better?

[Senator]

While I would tend to agree with the honourable Hess that Asian carriers have a much better product, there are some very important differences: most European flights ex. London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc are less than 2 hours. Secondly, these routes are serviced by single-aisle aircrafts. In Asia, they are served with A330s, B777 etc and probably average more than 3 hours. Looking at MAS, TG, SQ, CX only MAS and TG (with 4) have any smaller aircrafts in service like the older B737-400. Yet, these have bigger seats. I think European business class customers would rather see frequency on a route of 90minutes over a bigger aircraft and less frequent departures.

In the US, we still have a “Domestic First”. While chairs are bigger, some airlines like US requires a flight longer than 3 1/2hrs before a meal is served.

My personal wishes for an European business class includes: a swift checking process with or without bags, ability to pre-select a seat always, speedy security clearance, decent lounge with free wi-fi, comfortable wide seat. Finally, a healthy meal suiting for length of flight and time of day.

[JackyLek]

Well … I must say that Aeroflot has great product with their 320 Family series on the European-Moscow route .

The Business seats is big and comfort ….

[ScottWilson]

I remember around 12 years ago first flying in European business class and was appalled, primarily because of the seating. It didn’t matter what airline it was, I felt ripped off, primarily because I was used to short haul business class with Qantas in Australia or Trans Tasman with QF or NZ (flights ranging from 1hr20 to 4 hours). I was used to getting seat pitch of around 40″ with seats akin to BA WT+.

So for me if short haul business class is to be remodelled it should shrink in size, but have seating commensurate to say long haul premium economy. Blanking off a seat beside you is frankly a con with the same seat width and pitch. BA does slightly increase pitch and width, but still for the price it is poor.

The ground service experience should be largely similar to what is currently offered:

– Seat selection before checkin
– Separate check in
– Priority luggage and greater luggage allowance
– Priority security
– Lounge access
– Priority boarding

On board I expect 2-2 seating on narrow bodies, with premium economy levels of recline. I expect hot food, with a cold option for less than 2 hours, and hot options for more than 2 hours. I expect economy passengers to not be allowed to use the front bathroom or to exit the aircraft before business has done so. I would not expect there to be more than 3 rows like this.

The rest of the aircraft can include a flexible economy section at the front, which allows middle seats to be blocked off unless the flight is full, and first choice for whatever free sandwiches or whatever is thrown at economy class passengers. Flexible economy offering priority security, seat selection and lounge access would meet the needs of most business travellers.

In short, I think short haul business class in Europe needs to shrink, needs to be a more premium product so that value is seen in it. It also adds value for those transiting to long haul.

Economy class needs to be split between fully flexible customers (which is where business travel is heading) and restricted. SK and SN already do this of course

[VintageKrug]

I think you also have to take into account slot times and frequency of service throughout the day.

THAT is IMHO the biggest benefit of premium services on premium airlines – being able to get there and back in a day is a huge benefit.

Any increase in seat sizes would increase costs. It may also require larger aircraft (though not necessarily) and that could reduce frequencies at slot constrained airports, which is where the value is in European, primarily short hop, business travel.

[ScottWilson]

VK absolutely frequencies matter. However, that affects choice of airline, not class.

My employer used to allow business class within Europe as a matter of course, now it is economy class with flexibility only if required. I choose airlines because of a mix of price, my FF status (giving me lounge access/premium checkin/preferred seating) as a result. For leisure travel I’d consider business if it offered me room to spread out and for the longer (3 hour) segments the chance to recline a bit more (e.g. LHR-HEL), but mostly it isn’t worth it.

Bear in mind with FF status a passenger in Y can get almost all of the ground benefits (priority check-in, luggage, lounge access) anyway. Priority security is sometimes offered too (e.g. LHR T1 for *G).

What I am suggesting is either airlines make C class a value proposition in the air (at the moment it is a meal, and an empty neighbouring seat, which I get on around 50% of my flights as it is with FF status blanking it out unless the flight is busy), so that high fares can be charged because it is SEEN to be special compared with Y (like it is with long haul), or scrap C altogether in favour of granting some of the ground privileges to fully flexible Y passengers.

It would be interesting to see what C passengers value the most, and what it would take to move people from Y to C on shorter routes.

[NTarrant]

Scott I agree with you to a certain point in that Business Class on short haul should be something special. I have seen the QF and NZ offerings as well as those in the US and have thought that this is what we should be having out of LHR/LGW, BUT.

On the shortest of short haul, (e.g. to AMS, FRA, PAR, BRU, et al) the frequency is an important factor as VK has said. I have travelled LHR-AMS where there has been ten rows of CE on BA and also on a simular flight where I was the only one. Maximising revenue and filling a A319/320/321 or B757 with ten rows of CE is more profitable than ten rows of Y. The ability to convert seats is something unique to European airlines and of course is good business sense.

I have done Business in Europe mainly on BA but also on AF and FY, the latter offering a good product as BA does but AF is “ok” but lounges lack.

In the other thread on this forum there is the treat of CE being withdrawn on routes ex-LGW and this is where I feel the QF and NZ style Business class could be a draw to make special on the longer routes of over 2 hours. Some of the “holiday “destinations do attract some business travel and leisure travellers who want a bit of comfort. My wife and I have travelled to PFO on holiday with Thomsonfly in the past, but on considering a trip in he near future we decided its BA CE or we don’t go. If CE goes then do we fly BA and just get a bag of nuts for 4 hours or do we at least have the option of a hot meal on Thomson, albeit we have to pay for it.

Of course the problem with this idea is aircraft utilisation and the restriction as to the routes particular aircraft are restricted to. May be in better times it would work, but then in better times talk of withdrawing CE would not hit the radar.

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