[Anonymous]

[capetonianm]

** AS POINTED OUT – THE TICKET COLLECTOR CONCERNED WAS NOT VT STAFF **

A couple of weeks ago I had a connection from Manchester to Milton Keynes (Virgin Trains) and on to Watford Junction. Because of the ticket type, the MKC – WJ was for a specific connecting service, departing about 10 minutes after the inbound, although there was no seat reservation.

The Virgin Trains service inbound was about 10 minutes late so I missed the connection, no big deal, and took the next train, as one would, about 10 minutes later.

The ticket collector or whatever they call themselves these days, probably a ‘yield and revenue management executive’ looked at my ticket and said, without any preamble : “I have to charge you an excess fare and a penalty.” I asked him why and he said the ticket was not valid on the train I was using.

I explained why I was on that train and he said : “Not my problem.”

I said : “I understand that, and I appreciate that you don’t make these rules, but under the circumstances I am not paying any excess fare. I’ve already been delayed and I don’t expect to be fined on top of that.”

He said he would issue the penalty notice or whatever they call it and send it to my address.

I replied that I would tell him where he could send the penalty fare and he immediately started with the : “If you use abusive and threatening language you will be met by the police at Watford Junction when we arrive” line

When he’d finished I explained that I had no intention of being abusive, I was going to tell him that given that it was Virgin Trains’ fault that I was on the wrong service, he should send the penalty notice to them for settlement as being their responsibility.

He walked off ……. maybe to call the police …. I don’t know, but I’m still at liberty!

This is not the first time I’ve had a similar situation with the same rail company. Isn’t it time they trained their staff in discretion and common sense?

[TominScotland]

Sounds a dreadful experience, captonianm but it seems as if you handled it perfectly.

With this sort of thing, while the on-the-ground behaviour was clearly unacceptable, I would tend to put the blame on the culture of the organisation and its management. If staff are encouraged to use commonsense and apply sensible discretion, I suspect that they would be happier in their jobs and customers would not run into such idiotic responses. So, ultimately, blame bad management and leadership rather than the individual.

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Can I ask was it a Virgin Train to Watford Junction or was it Midland Trains as most Milton Keynes to Watford Junction are London Midland Trains (and an hourly southern service on Southern). If so this isn’t Virgin Trains but an issue with Go-Via (who run Southern and London Midland)? If it was Virgin train to Watford Junction I would have expected the staff to understand the issue if caused by an earlier Virgin Train delay.

Still doesn’t mean the staff behaved well (in either case). But if it was the not a Virgin Train staff who treated you as such then the thread title would need to be amended.

[capetonianm]

Fair comment, Tim. I seem to remember that the second train was headed for somewhere south of the river, so it may have been a Southern Trains service. I will try to amend the thread title to reflect that!

The point is though that I had been sold a through ticket, not separate tickets for each segment, and I expect the train operators to accept responsibility for a delay in the same way as airlines do when there is a delay when you have a through ticket.

The previous time this happened to me it was a VT service. The one I was booked on was ‘indefinitely delayed’ stuck somewhere on Shap, so I took the next one an hour later and again, was threatened with a penaLty.

AS IT’S NOT POSSIBLE TO EDIT THE THREAD TITLE, MAYBE SOMEONE FROM BT COULD DO SO ON MY BEHALF.

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Hi Capetonian

If you had a copy of the ticket I’d be interested to see, as in many cases train connections are not booked for a specific service (though sometimes a specific operator). For example I travel up from Brighton to Manchester/Nottingham/Sheffield on a regular basis and the ticket that is specified is on the “Intercity” service from London. Even though you are given times of coonnecting trains you can normally get any service you choose. However I do know that your scenario is also possible.

However the way you have been dealt with is extremely bad and should not have happened regardless as when you suffer a delay you are entitled to get the next available service (though technically maybe you should have spoken to the ticket staff at Milton Keynes station – I guess this is what they would argue as defence though why you should have to on a service with no seat reservation is laughable).

P.S. I do suffer from “train rage” (as do my brothers) and when I see passengers getting unfair/bad treatment I support them all the way and I’ll quote regulations if need be, take there name and staff number and then write to CEO of the train company. My girlfriend gets quite embarassed but I’m happy to argue a point with them for a whole journey if it means they back down if they are being so out of order or rude. Nothing like a rude “revenue protection agent” to set me off!

[canucklad]

I’ve seen this behaviour all too often.

Even as a frequent rail user I get confused at paying an extorniate amount for a 2nd class fare, with no seat reservation to then be expected to fully understand and comply with the T&C’s of carriage.

Add to the fact that train companies want us to believe that they are ultra modern and fit for purpose but their booking technology hasn’t moved on from the 70″s. And I belive its deliberate done so they can fleece us

I personally have been “mugged” more times than I would like to mention

However the worst example of “jobs worth” was the ” GNER Oberleitenant” who chucked a young lad (destined for London) off the train at Alnwick for not having a ticket. Mummys boy was in tears as he protested his innocence producing an e-mail confirmation of purchase. Documentation he believed was sufficient prove of purchase

To no avail and protestations from other passengers ( one using his laptop to prove the lads point about no clear instructions to collect tickets) he was left at Alnwick without if he was to be believed , cash.

Totally horrible experiance!

[andystock]

Only a few months ago I stopped another passenger getting a penalty fare for sitting in First Class on a First Capital Connect service when it fact the train is declassifed as is advertised in the timetable as standard class only (I get this train most days ).

I just said to the Ticket Inspector ‘check your timetable as this train is declassified’. The ticket inspector walked away looking rather silly.

[capetonianm]

Tim ….. I don’t have the relevant coupon but you can see the main part of the ticket here : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7593647/TKT%20MAR13.JPG as I kept it for my expenses reporting. It was actually a Chester – St Albans via MKC and Watford – I similar journeys quite often but I am pretty sure this is the one in question.

If I remember correclty the MKC-WJ said ‘valid as booked only’ and had a time on it but the seat number and carriage just showed asterisks.

This is a bit of a mountain/molehill situation but like you, I do get annoyed when I see people being mistreated by officials and they can’t or won’t stand up to the bullying. I have to say that the huge majority of train staff are sensible and helpful.

The worst I saw was a little old lady being bullied by a ticket inspector on a Waterloo – Gulidford service. She’d got into the closest carriage to the platform entrance and sat down. It happened to be first class. The way the man dealt with it, you’d have thought it was the crime of the century, instead of just pointing out her mistake and asking her to move, he started on about : “In terms of the powers vested in me …..”. He was ghastly. I got up and asked him if he knew how pompous and ridiculous he sounded and offered to escort the lady to ‘standard’ class – which I did.

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Thanks for that. Unfortunately couldn’t say with that but no reason to doubt you. Either way they if that happens invoke (I think) Article 43 of the National Conditions of Carriage. That should shut them up if it happens again.

I could list heaps of occasions when staff has been terrible – but actually 85-90% of the time staff do have common sense and manners and have been very helpful and respectful.

[NTarrant]

Only “RPI’s” Revenue Protection Inspectors can issue penalty fares, not normal conductors. Capetonian dealt with the situation well, but for future reference, you can insist on seeing thier authority to issue penalty fares. Take thier name and report them.

You should contact the train operator Capetonian.

[capetonianm]

Slothfulness has its benefits at times. I realised that the paper bin in my study has not been cleared for a while and I found half ot the relevant coupon. What happened to the other half I have no idea! As you can see, it mentions a specific train (which was a London Midland service according to the t/t) but had no seat nmuber on it. I would guess the train I took was the 1722 LM but could have been the 1713 Southern.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7593647/tkt02.pdf

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Interesting. Well might be worth seeing next time if they have a fare where you are only booked on a specific train as far as MKC. Regardless – Condition 43 of NRCOC should make the issue you encountered redundant. You could make them look really stupid and call there bluff and demand that he calls the police as conductor/revenue protection person would be in the wrong. I’d even be tempted to have the BTP number in my phone and call them next time demanding they meet you at your station as a guard is trying to “extort” money out of you! Perhaps that last line is a bit much.

[capetonianm]

He may have been an RPI – I don’t know but reading what you’ve all written, I’m beginning to think he was just a nasty piece of work who’d perhaps had a bad day and decided to chuck his weight around a bit.

I just checked the BTP website and they don’t appear to have a BTP presence at Watford but presumably they would have an agreement with the normal police in such a case.

Contacts here :
http://www.btp.police.uk/contact_us/btp_stations/london_north.aspx
http://www.btp.police.uk/contact_us/btp_stations.aspx

[drflight]

Section 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (May 2012) states:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel

Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:

(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

If you purchase an Advance ticket, you must use that ticket in the train specified when you book your ticket. However, if you miss this service because a previous connecting train service was delayed you will be able to travel on the next service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked to travel without penalty.

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare.

This would seem to indicate (3rd paragraph) if you miss a connecting train due to the previous train being late you are entitled to travel on the next train.

[Author]

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