[canucklad]

Hi Simon,
I wasn’t suggesting that BA’s proposition is the same as FR’s….I am just agreeing with all those who commented on the fact that if you strip back that service proposition you’ll find BA’s T & C’s or if you prefer its rights of carriage to be not to far away from O’Leary’s lot.

BA have in the past , cited these on many occasion, memorably when justifying not having catering during the gate gourmet dispute…
Back to my original point on the 23rd…. If BA reservations management ( the yield experts) know that it’s likely that the curtain is going to move, why not block off those rows were the predicted uplift might happen.
I’m not one of the BA’s bashers on this forum, but it seems to me, looking in from the outside that their management team run their very complex operation from the comfort of their own silo’s. So, in this case, the BAEC management ,in order to massage the ego’s of their most valued customers i.e. SwissExPat , offer by proxy benefits that can simply be reversed by another management team by simply moving a curtain.

And I’m sorry SwissExPat, I do have to question your decision to give up, what will soon become unintentionally (including the CE seats) the best seats in the BA cabin.

EDITED to add …. I’ve just read alexpo’s comment about Vueling’s nice gesture, and it reminded me that I’ve also been the victim of aircraft changes…..
As someone who has been lucky enough in the past to nab EE rows ,I’ve found myself in the same row, but no longer enjoying the comfort of an EE row after an aircraft change. … : (
And worse, BA allocated me 3A on an EDI-LHR domestic flight a couple of years ago…. When I dropped my bags they reissued me a new boarding pass for way further up the back due to operational issues….
On boarding the 767 I noticed that my original seat was a fancy dancy seat , my backside was good enough to sit in 3A domestic, but clearly not good enough to sit in 3A club, even though it wasn’t my fault that this wasn’t a domestic configuration…. As an ex BD customer my first impression of BA was that they were very petty….

[EU_Flyer]

canucklad- 25/07/2014 12:48 GMT

I think you will find most airlines T&Cs are not far off Ryanair’s and they are usually standard across the industry.

All airlines build into their T&Cs the kind of flexibility that is required when operating an airline, no matter whether you’re Singapore Airlines, Aegean or easyjet.

Changes happen, most likely because of last minute sales or upgrades which BA are entitled to provide. BA are a business, not a charity, and therefore moving a passenger’s seat allocation is entirely reasonable.

In my opinion, if BA adopted the kind of service strategies that SwissExPat is suggesting they had applied to him, they would probably go out of business and his/her shares would be worthless. In the end BA demonstrated good service by upgrading SwissExPat, something they were not obliged to do.

In short, whilst I am also a Gold card holder, I would never expect an airline to forego selling revenue generating seats/upgrade me for free/move another passenger (regardless of their status) or provide me compensation because I was moved a few rows back in the same class I had booked and paid for. An apology might be nice, but nothing more.

And on a final note (as if I hadn’t said enough), Gold Card holders should feel entitled to the perks that are advertised (within reason), but without forgetting to use their common sense at the same time.

[canucklad]

Hi AlexUpgrade77 ……In total agreement with you until your last point.
As a gold card holder you have no more additional rights than a first time user on BA or for that matter any other airline flying on the cheapest ticket available.

And I’m not singling BA out here, we as consumers, are unfortunately becoming conditioned to accept inferior levels of service across the board for a whole variety of lame excuses that let businesses subtly change the relationship with us from one of “the customer is right” to “Be thankful we’re supplying you with a good service”

And it’s about time we all woke up and smelt the coffee, or we’re all going to end up accepting mediocrity as an acceptable norm.

[SimonS1]

But maybe they didn’t “know” the curtain was going to move. That’s the whole point. Even sophisticated yield management systems will not be 100% effective 100% of the time – there is always the risk of last minute bookings for a variety of reasons and I doubt they set out with the aim of upsetting SwissExpat.

In any case if they did block the rows on an ‘in case’ basis no doubt the same people would be moaning that when they were released someone else was able get them.

As for the bit about “BAEC management ,in order to massage the ego’s of their most valued customers i.e. SwissExPat , offer by proxy benefits that can simply be reversed by another management team by simply moving a curtain.” I think you read too much into it. Most airlines offer seat reservations either paid for or free as a benefit to status flyers. However seat reservations are never guaranteed and always subject to change by the airline. Regardless of who was sat in the seats they would have been moved – I don’t recall it being a BAEC benefit that seat assignments were inviolable.

Finally when it comes to smelling the coffee, we all have a choice. Clearly as a Gold BAEC member SwissExpat isn’t too unhappy with what BA have on offer.

[EU_Flyer]

Hi canucklad

I see what you mean about declining levels of service with airlines and many other service orientated industries embracing mediocrity. In many ways I agree.

Airlines have to maintain a balance between providing their core product (ie getting you from A to B) and the ‘service’ side of the business ‘which includes all the perks such as food and beverage, first and business class, lounges, seats with extra leg room, priority boarding etc. What differentiates BA from Ryanair is really the latter as both companies get you from A to B.

The problem is that, when it comes to priorities, airlines tend to focus on getting you there first and the service bit second. On the one hand we huff and puff when we don’t get our requested seat but on the other hand we happily accept an operational upgrade when it’s necessary to get everyone on the plane.

I ask SwissExpat, for example, how he would feel about on the one hand accepting an operational upgrade because his flight was oversold in Y class but at another time having his seat moved when the operational requirements made it necessary.

BA, in this case, had X number of passengers to get from A to B on SwissExpat’s flight. Some were in CE others in ET depending on what tickets they bought. Surely BA were entitled to shuffle the seating so as to get everyone onboard? It would have been worse had SwissExpat been moved from just behind the curtain because a more important frequent flyer had been allocated his seat instead. Yet SwissExpat implies that another passenger should have been moved to accomodate his original exit seat request. This is not an acceptable expectation.

In the end, the airline got him/her from A to B (with a nice upgrade thrown in) and that’s what counts in the end. It’s why people use airline travel. To get from A to B with levels of comfort/service the particular airline brand offers. Had SwissExpat been bumped I can understand his outrage. But he/she wasn’t and his/her claims are, in my opinion, quite unreasonable.

[handbag]

Simon S1
I am surprised that as an experienced traveller you were apparently unaware that the curtain gets moved from time to time and you were clearly gambling on giving up the exit row seats. This backfired on you, so take it on the chin and move on.

Finally I am also surprised that having eventually been upgraded you are still pretending to be some form of victim. Whether or not it was linked, it seems like pretty good service recovery to me and I suspect 99% of travellers would have been satisfied with the outcome

I so agree with you. Good points.

BA do get things wrong, but I don’t see what they did wrong this time. I do really struggle to see, how when someone is given an upgrade that they were not entitled to , that they are posting that they were a victim. I actually think they were very lucky.

If you book behind the curtain and you are a regular traveller, you know you might be moved. Why then complain when you are.

[CXDiamond]

handbag et al, +1.

I don’t think I’ve ever read so much rubbish posted by a DYKWIA.

I checked in on Wednesday for an LH flight from MUC-LHR, there were four rows of C, on boarding the curtain had gone back to row eleven and C was full. The A319 had become an A321. My point is that it’s not just BA who obviously have loads changing at short notice.

If you travel behind the curtain you may well be moved, get used to it and don’t whine when you are or pay to fly up front.

[SwissExPat]

I owe a few replies on this topic (but am busy enjoying a holiday with Mrs ExPat in London and Wales)

I completely disagree with RFerguson. (respectfully of course, since I have always enjoyed their contribution to the forum)

Saying that “no payment is involved for any of the perks of the Executive Club” is definitely incorrect. We have to pay significant amounts of cash to get to various levels of membership. BA certainly does not (AFAIK) give it away free. Seeing that members of this forum actually go on “Mileage Runs” to get and retain various levels of membership also shows how valued it is. Sure, some members of BAEC pay more than other for the various levels. This info is not available to us since BA sets the rules and thresholds. We simply go about spending (as little) to get various benefits. BA and others do this for commercial reasons to retain our future business and it does work for them (and us).

The kernel of this issue centres on the difference between a benefit/service being provided when it is

a) paid for in cash
b) offered as a benefit given a certain level of membership /[ proxy a certain level of pre-spend in the prior year]

In case a) when the service is not provided, the cash paid is refunded.

In case b) many seem to be of the view that the service provider can (being an airline) not provide the service and simply say “we are not bound to provide it”

Also “If you used your BA Gold status, you would be entitled to no ‘refund’. You didn’t buy anything. You used a perk” might be a more debatable argument if the service was not offered for sale on a standalone basis to all PAX. The fact that these PAX having paid cash would get the cash back negates this argument. If the service provider agrees to compensate these PAX, then why not do the same for other similarly affected but who “pre-paid”?

Logically, once one user of the service is compensated by a refund of the amount paid, the other user should expect something. The questions is what is the “something”?

Also as a general point, I am quite happy with BA. They mess up now and again but usually come good.

I did write a piece 1 year ago on the comparison between BA and Swiss on the service on the “Trunk Route” between ZRH and London.

BA won hands down [when view from the perspective of Silver FF in both BAEC and Miles and More]

[rferguson]

In fairness swissexpat you can achieve BA gold by flying LHR – MAN and back twice a year on the least expensive ticket. The remainder of the tier points could come from another OneWorld airline. Or you could for out £20k for a couple of F returns for one and the missus and still ‘buy’ nothing in terms of status.

The Exec Club is not for sale. It is a loyalty program with perks. Some will achieve these perks by spending an awful lot of money on BA flights. Others like the MAN example will contribute c£200 and receive the same perks. Others still will cough up tens of thousands and still not ‘earn’ even silver.

I think the point is there is a massive difference to what is a perk within a loyalty program and what is paid for. Perks should be upheld, absolutely. And in fairness, BA did. You chose your preferred seat at the time of booking (probably the best in Y at that). You switched, and unfortunately, got burnt.

I do agree the gold line could have handled it better. And perhaps the could have made an exception to upgrade. But I can imagine this same scenario happening on any airline with flexible J cabins.

[SimonS1]

The fact is someone who has paid cash to reserve their seat has paid extra, over and above what you paid. They paid a premium.

In the event that seats are moved their premium is refunded. You didn’t pay a premium so there was nothing to refund. I don’t ever recall anything within BAEC benefits or T&Cs that might indicate in any way that you would be entitled to an ex-gratia payment (which is what it would be).

Presumably as an experienced traveller you knew all this at the outset. You knew there was a risk the curtain might be moved and you also knew the gamble you were taking when giving up the emergency exit row seats you had. If not you seem surprisingly ill-informed for a BAEC gold member.

As stated above I think by giving you CE seats the airline demonstrated pretty good service recovery and I’m honestly surprised you show such ingratitude by continuing to whine about such a minor issue, largely of your own making.

[TheRealBabushka]

Wow! I’m really surprised how much attention this post has received.

Would it be fair to say, at the heart of the matter is a bit of bruised ego?

Being moved from a seat that was selected without adequate acknowledgement by the airline of the (self) importance of the passenger being moved.

Breath….in life sh*t happens.

[rferguson]

I wonder if BA’s reaction would have been different if the converted club seat was your initial selection. For example if someone has paid for an exit row seat, then changed it to the first row of Y when OLCI opens THEN finds they have been moved because of a config change then finds their original seat has been reallocated I don’t think BA would refund the payment that they made. They reserved a seat which was confirmed to them. Then voluntarily moved from their chosen seat. Then their original purchased seat was reallocated. If they stuck with their seat they paid for and were reallocated I am certain they would be given a refund.

Perhaps you have been treated exactly the same as someone paying for the seat. The agent would have had access to your seating history. Would have saw that you were given your originally selected seat. At departure -7 seat selection opens for bronze/silver. Your now vacant seat has been taken by someone else.

It’s a shame they couldn’t sort it out to your satisfaction. Have you complained post flight? You may at least nab a few avios.

[KarlMarx]

SwissExpat

As you are still obviously upset by this episode, let me try putting it this way.

All passengers get a refund of what they pay for their seats, when they are changed for operational reasons and you received a full refund of the fee you paid and then got a nice upgrade, so it is really time to move onto more important things in your life.

[SimonS1]

KarlMarx – I don’t follow: he didn’t pay a fee so didn’t get a refund. That’s what he is banging on about.

[KarlMarx]

Simon

He got back exactly what he paid for the seat 🙂

[Author]

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