[Anonymous]

[MartynSinclair]

Casey Anthony is a young mother (well until her daughter went missing and was found dead) and a defendant in a very high profile capital murder trial (death penalty potential), in the USA, who was cleared of the main charges, which resulted in her release from prison last Sunday morning, under the full glare of 24/7 coverage by all the major US news channels.

What seems to be amazing and relevant to this forum is the fact depsite the robust protocols and procedures for passengers going through airports, with countless security check points, identity cards along with strip searches of 90 year old ladies. Combine this with the TSA’s distrust of the UK security procedures and the fact that anyone who dares look at a TSA officer the wrong way, could potentially be carted off for intense screening, lasting hours, that an ex prisoner is able to board a flight at either 1am or 3am (Sunday morning, depending on which news report you read) without the need for the pilot to either advise the authorities of a passenger list or for the pilot to file a flight plan.

I find it astonishing that I can be held at DFW for over 2 hours in a line to have my passport checked and yet there appears a loophole for jet charter flights to be able to fly passengers, who have not passed through any security check point, do not appear on any passenger manifest, do not have to identify themselves and that the pilot / aircraft operator is able to depart what I must assume to be VFR at night, and simply dissappear.

Can someone clarify this please or suggest where my discussion is flawed?

http://www.ongo.com/v/1406206/-1/69BD9E6864465DFD/where-in-the-world-is-casey-anthony-rumor-mill-works-overtime

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Martyn

I’m not an expert, but IIRC from my days flying in the US, it is lawful to fly VFR at night on a private flight and you don’t have to file a flightplan, as it is a private flight.

Also, one can file IFR whilst airborne, so I have seen people blast off VFR and then try to file enroute.

I don’t think your understanding is flawed, but I don’t see this as being a uniquely US situation. You’d need a minimum of a night rating in the UK (or whatever they can it these days), but a private flight can fly IFR at night without filing and you could tell the tower you were going to Timbuktoo. And without anyone having an instrument qualification, apart from the night rating. Of course, if you were a terrorist with suicidal tendencies, you wouldn’t worry about the AAIB/Police discovering you weren’t qualified, post hoc. Mohamed Atta flew a 767 without the right ratings.

One can depart VFR (daytime) on a private flight in the UK and frankly it would be easy to lie and inform the tower that you were going anywhere.

Alternatively, you could file IFR and then leave your route.

If you take a look at the London 2012 airspace restrictions, you can see some of the security thinking behind it.

On the other hand, if a terrorist controlled aircraft gets over a major city, what are your options?

Laws don’t work with smart terrorists.

With regard to Casey Anthony, maybe she took a train?

[craigwatson]

i might be reading this wrong martyn, but they were departing from a US airport, at least thats what i got from your story, so i fail to see where reporting a passenger manifest comes into play? that is only for international flights arriving into the states, and even then private jets can just fax the manifest ahead once airborne.

I have flown VFR at night in the states, its no problem, actually its so much nicer than over here… all that empty space!! its a dream.

But i have to say i have never really thought about it, but i suppose you are right about it being a security loophole, but not just in the states, but in every country in the world. Private jets take off from small local airports ( sometimes that are even closed with the pilot turning the runway lights on via the radio), so anyone or anything could be onboard, and there is no requirement for a flight plan if flying in uncontrolled airspace VFR, again that is pretty much worldwide.

[RichHI1]

Surprised this is news to people. Just a note to those trying to avoid CBP this way, if you are not a US citizen or legal resident you will need a Visa if entering the USA on a private aircraft as it is a requirement that your carrier is registered in the VIsit USA Visa Waiver Program. (Had to offload from TAM a few years ago when they were not registered).

[craigwatson]

actually Rich that is not quite right, most european countries would be on the ESTA program, which is valid for multi entry for 2 years, and private aircraft are exempt from the program you are describing which is for commercial operators.

So nothing to stop someone (who already holds an ESTA) from jumping on a private jet from say london at the last minute and hoping over to NYC on a whim, to passenger manifest can be faxed from the air to the US authorities.

[RichHI1]

Craig, I see your point.
My all too partial understanding is that ESTA applies to carriers registered in the program. It is not mandatory for an applicant to alter the entry information each time so arguably one could complete an ESTA application on a registered carrier and then seek to re-enter on the same ESTA without changing information.
I suspect that the manifest would only be acceptable by CBP from a registered carrier (which does include some general aviation.)
Can you share some experience in this field? I would be very intersted to hear.
For reference “ESTA approval authorizes a traveler to board a carrier for travel to the United States under the VWP. Private carriers must be a signatory visa waiver program carrier. See 9 FAM 41.2 EXHIBIT III
LIST OF SIGNATORY VISA WAIVER PROGRAM (VWP) CARRIERS: INA 217(E) SIGNATORY TRANSPORTATION LINES (CT:VISA-1242; 07-09-2009) (Office of Origin: CA/VO/L/R)”

[MartynSinclair]

I understand and have also departed VFR at night (both as a passenger and a pilot), but not in a $20 million dollar jet, with a COMMERCIAL crew + at least 8 passengers, one of which is considered the current “where is she” sweping the USA. In addition, the airport was surrounded by police and was a downtown executive airport (which I also understand was kept open specially for a possible 3 am departure).

Every commerical flight in the USA has to have a crew and passenger list submitted prior to departure, but it seems this is exempt for private jet flights, even if they are operated by a commerically employed crew.

Makes it easy for someone to travel across the states undetected and seemingly makes a mockery of the TSA and all the procedures implemented for the airlines and US security forces for policing who is flying where in USA airpspace.

DoS, if only there was a decent train service covering the States.

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

Martyn

If she took the train, it may explain why she has not been seen yet – still trundlng through the middle of nowhere at 20mph 🙂

[MartynSinclair]

DoS

Not quite. She would still be on the platform and would be wishing she was trvelling at 20 mph!

[RichHI1]

They say the Station Master in Denver is sober too…

[craigwatson]

not 100% sure on this in the States, but i dont think private jet charters are classed as commercial operations. so therefore no need to disclose passenger manifest

[MartynSinclair]

Exactly my point craigwatson. A private jet charter, operated on a commerical basis (how many PPL’s do you know operating a Lear Jet??), carrying passengers who do not have to be recorded, as well as departing at night, initally VFR. Not to mention going through an airport (which is meant to be secure) with no security checks.

And the TSA wonder how the odd weapon finds its way onto a larger commercial jet!

[RichHI1]

Craig, none of this is to be treated as in any way as legal advice but how I read things is that ESTA is a pre notification system to help implement the VWP. The VWP was designed so that commercial carriers underwrote the cost of repatriating visitors without visas who were denied entry for legally valid reasons. A quote from US legislation says “Pursuant to section 217 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187), a VWP alien traveling to the United States by air or sea must arrive in the United States on a carrier that has signed an agreement with DHS guaranteeing to transport inadmissible or deportable VWP travelers out of the United States at no expense to the United States. This may create significant delays for the VWP traveler who may not have been on notice that he or she is not admissible to the United States until he or she has arrived at a U.S. port of entry.”

To go further requires legal advice and or experience from a poster who has tried to use the VWP to gain access on general or private aviation.
Interesting topic – however I think I prefer a nice seat in 777 flying LHR-LAX rather than getting claustrophobic in a Gulf Stream V (overlooking the price differential). And the CBP at the AA terminal in LAX are the best in the business. No complaints from me.

[MartynSinclair]

RichHI1 – my interest in this thread stems from the fact that airports are meant to be secure and sterile. This is one example of how there appears to be a very large gap in that:

1. airport access – no security checks

2. passengers – not checked against any no fly list

3. aircraft departs with no known destination (VFR) at night

Please lets not split hairs about the “private nature” of the jet charter. Whether it was an international flight or not is largely irrelevant. It was a flight where airport security could have been compromised, especially if the eventual destination was a large international airport.

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