[AMcWhirter]

Long-time readers will know that both myself and the team here have been following Eurostar’s fortunes since its launch from Waterloo in 1994.

At that time it was thought Eurostar heralded a new age in international rail travel from the UK.

Sadly Eurostar has never realised what it set out to do.

And since March 2020 its network has shrunk to a handful of destinations which, Rotterdam and Amsterdam excepted, are the same ones as were served in 1994.

There is no news when its two Kent stations will return or when its route to the South of France will restart.

Ebbsfleet (Kent) is missed as it served as a Park&Ride station for customers on both sides of the Thames who didn’t want to trek into the capital.

Little wonder that EZY has seized the opportunity to launch Paris flights from Southend later this year.

The diagram contained in this report shows the current reduced Eurostar network.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/23/eurostar-brexit-cross-channel-tunnel-disneyland-paris-amsterdam?CMP=share_btn_tw

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WilliamRead, MarcusGB, LuganoPirate, Phil_Duncan, pdwtrip

[LuganoPirate]

Interesting article, and again Brexit gets the blame. Even when the UK was a part of the EU, the Eurostar services were never expanded other than to handful of destinations in France. Frankfurt was promised way back in the late 90’s early 20’s, as was Amsterdam. I seem to recall Marseille and Nice being talked about as well as going down to Spain. There was excuse after excuse given so these destinations never happened. While Brexit did cause some complications, it’s wrong to use it as an excuse, and with some willingness and flexibility (which has never really been the case since 1994) many more destinations could be served.

I recall before Schengen, inter Europe passport control was carried out on the train, and who remembers the channel crossings where you queued for immigration formalities on the boat. No, if the will is there there is no valid reason why these services can be restarted and indeed expanded.

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stevescoots, WilliamRead, cwoodward

[MarcusGB]

Thank you for sharing this Alex.

As many would know on here, this is a matter i have shared on here in different threads, detailing the timings, connections when they were, and lack of reliability of journeys specifically to Amsterdam. We had a Home in Amsterdam, and travelled between London and Amsterdam every other week.

The comparison, all procedures before getting on the train to start (90 mins recommended), after, Connecting when it was Eurostar to Thalys,reliability, comfort, food and beverages, and overall stress of travel, easily outweighed that of flying.
This i detailed again in another related thread recently re the Amsterdam services.

The costs are simply not worth it, basic prices even a few months in advance, were never below £200, at times over £3-400 return. I checked just a few weeks ago.
The comfort on a crowded train, even in the middle premium standard, was nothing special, and F n B was not great, with no choice to obtain elsewhere as when flying. Post Covid, myself and my Medic colleagues, are mindful of not being “Crammed in” on transportations, on grounds of basic hygiene let alone a Pandemic.
The 40+ minutes to fly between the UK and Amsterdam, along with pre and post required procedures, still well beats the train trip. Also on Costs, even with the Airfares having increased also. You can walk around and be free except when on the aircraft, which is restricted once you go through to be “penned in” before boarding, then be sat for hours.
It is part of my renewal for my Platinum status in Skyteam, that i earn and have a very pleasant time before and after, with Lounges, fast tracks, and the pleasures of Schiphol. I’m rewarded for my loyalty, and i am valued as a traveller, and enjoy and relax with all the processes and dynamics for frequent flyers. I look forwards to this “Space”, not dreading the train trip.

Ironically being in NL’s today, on arrival last week, i was on the Schiphol train platform 35 mins after landing. I was waiting for a train North, when a Eurostar ex London passed through slowly on my platform. This was approx 13.30hrs It was not busy with people,but remarkably the train outside was filthy, and it must have been v difficult to see through by passengers. The Dutch started to laugh around me, remarking on “How Dutch Trains would be taken out of service if they looked like this.” It does not have a good reputation here!

I have tried several times over many years, as i have recently to compare the prices and timings. It fails to appeal on all counts. Even on Environmental grounds, KLM now have many Embraer’s around Europe, cutting back of emissions with the use of sustainable fuel mixes, and options to support forestations, and carbon offsets you can add on for a small charge. I support this, and continue to enjoy my flights, rather than dreading the energy sucked out of me, and accompanying attitudes and discomforts of Eurostar.

I am not sure what this Government HAS done with Brexit, as the issues or opportunities it gave us have shown no benefit to the UK, in my view since!

But the strikes, delays, breakdowns, unreliability of Eurostar saw people queueing around outside the stations often enough, and given all the processes and service, costs, people just are not prepared to use Eurostar anymore, at least not through to Amsterdam. It is not like flying, where you can get on the next flight, or you are covered more with delays. If the train line systems are down or track blocked, it all grinds to a halt for several days of backlogs.

But the question remains…

Would we Build such a tunnel project now, when we do not have the right to free movement?
Would we have done back then, if we knew this was going to be closed off to us?

It is a great freedom when in NL’s to be able to simply get on a train, where and when you wish, rather than spending several hundreds of £’s and booking rigidly ahead by weeks or months as in the UK.
I enjoy my freedom of movement here, for a low Euros 30 to go anywhere in NL’s by train, for the day or any time i choose.
I love to travel, and feel grossly restricted and overtaxed to fly even from the UK.
I start all my flights from Europe now, saving £1,000+ per long haul Business flight, compared to taking the same Airlines from the UK.

So, i am not in the mood for all the restrictions and extra costs the UK or Eurostar want to add on.
Now as of today, i feel it is in fact a failed project, and its reputation with those who travel, exceptionally poor.
The cost, and time taken is simply not worth it, the reliability poor. They have let down many communities, many destinations and calling points. Fewer people benefit, so they turn their back on it.
This is the way it has been,and reflects badly on those Managing it, hence its reputation has plummeted.

Brexit has simply not made this any easier…

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red_robbo, stevescoots, WilliamRead, LuganoPirate, cwoodward, AMcWhirter, Jacob

[AMcWhirter]

Interesting news reported today [FR] by Lechotourtique.com.

We now know why Eurostar retreated to its core network which is virtually unchanged sine its launch in 1994.

Financial result for the Eurostar Group (Eurostar and Thalys) show a loss.

Its debt stands at Euros 964 million (at end December 2022) although a strong recovery in demand enabled Eurostar Group to repay Euros 127 million (before December 2022).

Eurostar is pleased with passenger growth on the route linking London with the Netherlands.

But no mention is made of the limited capacity at the Rotterdam and Amsterdam terminals which means that a Eurostar departing Netherlands can never be more than half full.

Some good news for customers will be a new website (combining Eurostar and Thalys) and loyalty scheme.

CEO Gwendoline Cazenave is quoted as saying, “This fall, the new brand [Eurostar and Thalys] will be embodied by the new website … and the unique loyalty program, which will be the first visible effecrs of the new merger for our customers.”

Transport : Eurostar annonce enfin des résultats positifs

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WilliamRead, MarcusGB

[AndrewRuck]

Thank you, I appreciate you for sharing that article with us. 🙂

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WilliamRead

[MarcusGB]

Hi Alex.

If The Dutch are aiming to reconstruct or expand the facilities for Non EU travel ie Eurostar services, then they must have made or to make some commitment to the services being re-established afterwards?
No other services would need these facilities for Thalys or Eurostar.
I see their maybe either “Brand” being used and one run down…

Could the Thalys services ever run through to the UK?
I take it they are not know one group financially, as the losses would reflect on Thalys v badly, so what are the thalys finances much better, as their trains are very busy always and often hourly now, apart from middle of the day.

They also have Standard, introduced the Comfort, then Premium services, so 3 classes.
Looking at a date a month ahead, the standard from Amsterdam to Brussels Midi, One way, was just Euros 33 / 54 /103 for each class!

They are FAR less expensive than Eurostar trains through UK to Europe… and of course not 90 minutes to arrive prior to travel, just get on as a normal train!
Perhaps why they are so much easier and popular to travel with, compared with the bureaucracy and procedures that Eurostar seem to drag out.

When over the other side of the Sea, i happily use Thalys, but at times it can be very crowded in the carriages, and actually the coaches are not very clean, and i found many seats stained or in a poor state!

I would actually prefer the NS Intercity Dutch / Belgium Trains to Brussels, quieter, spotlessly clean, good value, smooth and spacious. First options also with some seats in a private Multi seated cabin with a glass door access!

NS Dutch rail, also have a weekend season ticket to buy each month, for Euros 34 for 2nd class, or 43 for 1st!
You commit for the year, but this really is something compared to the UK! You can use this with a dedicated Chipkaart. Very clever and fantastic value!

[AMcWhirter]

Hello MarcusGB,

The trains used by Thalys are not in their prime. Thalys has received no new rolling stock since the 1990s and that is one reason why it provides insufficient capacity (to cope with current market demands) at the present time.

Thalys’ trains would be able to meet Tunnel requirements hence they will not be running to London.

However if Eurostar were to let Thalys have a few of its Siemens units then there would be no problem (in Thalys operating to the UK).

Note that Thalys has refurbished several of its fleet and these have been nicknamed “Ruby.” It is unclear whether or not the others will be refurbished.

https://www.thalys.com/be/en/info-services/our-new-trainset

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MarcusGB, cwoodward, WilliamRead

[ASK1945]

Ales: did you actually mean “Thalys’ trains would not be able to meet Tunnel requirements hence they will not be running to London”?

[AMcWhirter]

My mistake and well spotted ASK1945.

Yes the current Thalys trainsets (which date from the 1990s) would *not* meet Tunnel requirements.

It’s all to do with the unique requirements which the Tunnel authorities demand and this has limited the possibility of any competition to Eurostar which has held a monopoly since 1994.

Some of the requirements cover rules concerning safety and evacuation procedures.

But they also include things like being able to secure suspect passengers on the train.

The original Eurostar sets built by Alstom had secure cells for this purpose.

Later Siemens sets have a private space where handcuffed passengers can be placed.

This tweet today from Eurostar train manager Blake @TMBlakeEurostar shows the above private space.

https://twitter.com/TMBlakeEurostar/status/1676973181297410049

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WilliamRead

[WilliamRead]

Another network that “shrank” even before it opened was the network of trains via the Tunnel to a number of destinations in the UK outside London. We were promised direct trains through the Tunnel from Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh etc; the trains were built… and then sold abroad when the network was cancelled. The UK Department for Transport at its best…..

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AMcWhirter, stevescoots

[ASK1945]

WR wrote: ” ……….We were promised direct trains through the Tunnel from Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh etc; the trains were built… and then sold abroad when the network was cancelled …..”

I recall that we discussed this many years ago. There was a big train shed outside Piccadilly Station, Manchester, which housed several Eurostar train sets, initially for the Manchester terminus of Eurostar. During most nights these were rotated with an equivalent number of sets in West London, to keep them “active”. But there was a problem – many of the station platforms on route were a little too near the rails and so the trains were limited to 60 mph (to guard against slight tilt) which meant that they took over 3 hours for the journey, far slower than the usual times for the journey between the two cities.

I think the idea was scuppered by the UK government, partly because of the costs involved in altering all the stations to permit fast running.

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WilliamRead

[AMcWhirter]

Just to expand on what WillianRead posted above.

In fact there were two sets of trains built and I think WR refers to the regional Eurostar trains.

1. The regional Alstom Eurostar sets. These were designed to operate from the UK regions to Paris and Brussels. They are the same as the 18-car trains used out of London but shorter in length. As far as I know they never saw commercial service with Eurostar in the UK. However a couple of sets were leased to GNER who operated them on its White Rose service between London and Leeds.
These regional units were not sold off. Instead they were transferred to SNCF who deployed them on its domestic network. In due course the regional sets were withdrawn from service to be scrapped.

2. The second set was the sleeping rolling stock for Nightstar. These trains were planned to operate through the Tunnel to mainland Europe from both London and UK regional points.
They never saw commercial service and were later sold to VIA Rail Canada at a discounted price.

VIA Rail continues to operate these Nightstar carriages for its Montreal-Halifax ‘The Ocean’ train.

Fast forward to 3 mins 40 secs of this YouTube and you can see the ex-Nightstar rolling stock, along with some of its history, now branded ‘Renaissance’ by VIA Rail.

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WilliamRead

[TimFitzgeraldTC]

The White Rose services initially operated additional services to York. They were 14 carriage sets that as you say were originally to run the regional Eurostar services through to Paris.

Eurostar services have always struggled with the passport control requirements Home Office dictates for UK bound trains (Brexit or No Brexit). Brexit has massively hampered operations since with requirements for full passport checks both ways – but more so on services now leaving UK – to say Brexit has not been a hindrance is disingenuous.

The secondary issue is ETIAS for those outside the EU (which Brexit is therefore an issue). The EU trying to copy the ESTA system accept they have made a massive error from what I understand in applying ETIAS to all modes of arrival, unlike the US where an ESTA is only required for arrivals by plane or boat. If the EU changed ETIAS to be arrivals by air to start with then for those coming by boat / train / land won’t have the massive queues coming soon.

The Eurostar (other other potential operators into London) is a really sad situation. Great ideas and massively needed – but a victim of bureaucracy , bad politics and weak management.

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MartynSinclair, ASK1945

[WilliamRead]

Thanks; yes, I recall that Canada was the destination for some of the planned UK to Europe trains on Eurostar. I did not know about the chequered history of some of the other trains that were manufactured.

[AMcWhirter]

Indeed WilliamRead. There were two different sets of trains. The regional Eurostar sets made by Alstom did not, as far as I am aware, even operate from London.

For a while these regional trains were stored at Eurostar’s North Pole depot beside the GWR mainline. Travellers taking GWR or HEX (Heathrow Express) out of Paddington could easily see them stored at North Pole (a few miles out of Paddington).

A couple of these units were leased by GNER but they had to operate at limited speed (110 mph I believe) because the ECML power supply wouldn’t be able to cope. And of course even if the power supply were robust enough to cope these trains would be limited to 125 mph max.

The regional units were later transferred to SNCF and they operated on a couple of domestic routes.

Certainly an 18-car Eurostar set did operate IZY (Thalys’ budget subsidiary) Paris-Brussels in the time leading up to the pandemic in March 2020.

That set was later scrapped in France.

[Author]

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