[superchris]

Ive just been told that a flight I have next month back from Copenhagen in Club Europe has been switched to wet lease partner Danish Air Transport. The reviews online (albeit quite dated and as wet leases for other airlines) have been poor. Anyone experienced the BA / DAT flights and any advice?

Also, whats causing BA to need to do this? Is it delays in aircraft deliveries?

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jwhi56

[TominScotland]

Certainly aircraft delivery issues but also, I think, the ending of wetleases from Finnair. I cannot see why you should be worried

[Rferguson2]

Hey SuperC, this is what Headforpoints wrote about DAT:

‘It is a wet lease, so DAT will providing the flight and cabin crew as well as the aircraft (1 x A320, 1 x A321). Standard British Airways service will be provided.

If your flight is impacted and you booked before the operating airline was swapped, you should have received an email from British Airways. If you are unhappy with this change, you are allowed to change your flight to a same-day BA-operated service.

Feedback on the A320 aircraft is good so far, especially in terms of the crew and front row legroom.

The A321 has only just arrived and I’ve not seen any feedback. The aircraft is getting on a bit – it is 26 years old and spent the first 20 years of its life flying for Sichuan Airlines in China.’

Sounds like you have the option to switch to a BA operated flight if you prefer.

I think the reason is just seasonal – in the super busy summer months BA adds additional routes to holiday islands etc and just doesn’t have the jets to cover their operation.

[fastphil]

I flew on the DAT A321 twice last week – all good.
Standard BA catering and Crew very friendly and have quickly learnt BA process.
Only point to note is no WiFi or seat charging points.

[cwoodward]

By any standards this is a old aircraft with many younger A321s already scrapped.
It is likely that it is only the current major shortage of aircraft that has been an opportunity for DAT and ‘Air Cap’ to keep this one flying.

The life span of a A320 is normally expected to be about 26 years (according to Airbus) 60,000 flight hours or 24,000 flight cycles. and given where it has been for the past 20 years I would wager that it has done more than this.

It looks to be the only A321 at DAT and is itself a leased aircraft from Air-cap. At 26 it is by most standards a very old aircraft for a legacy airline to be offering up. Given where it has been for the past 20 years it would have been worked hard at Sichuan mostly short-haul with a huge number of take-offs and landings.

Using this aircraft reflects very poorly on the airline and the judgment of its managers in my view and I would not be keen to fly on it given it provenance ( but probably would at a pinch) and I am frankly very surprised that BA would offer this aircraft to its fare paying passengers.

This is yet another episode that reflects very poorly on BA and the judgment of its managers in my view.

[AndrewinHK]

Lufthansa has several active 30 year old 321’s, (D-AIRA/D-AIRC/D-AIRF) so whilst 26 years is old it is hardly dangerous or warrants a scolding for management.

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FLETCHER, red_robbo

[cwoodward]

Andrew generally held industry views I believe differ from your own.

BTW did not mention or even imply that the aircraft was dangerous only that it was old, hard used and past its normal ‘use by’ date.
Yes, I would reluctantly fly on it but am surprised that BA would be offering it. However it of course would be cheaper to lease than something newer that was not past its recommended ‘use by’ date.

As regards Lufthansa -the aircraft that you mention have been with the airline since new and have been looked after by one of the best engineering companies in the industry – even so the airline has already ‘retired’ some of its older A321s – thus any direct comparison with this old banger is I feel inappropriate.

The stats mentioned in my post came from Airbuses own websites and postings thus I disagree with you on this and confirm my disappointment that BA would be using this aircraft when younger less warn (but probably not as cheap) alternatives are available.

[AndrewinHK]

In addition Air France and Austrian operate 321’s that are 28-29 years old F-GMZC/F-GMZD and OE-LBC being some examples, seems as if the 321 is a sturdy workhorse. I myself flew on OE-LBC which was 27 years old at the time, and like many older aircraft, you often can’t tell as the interiors have been modernised.

[christ]

Does BA no longer use Titan airways – a number of years ago i went on one and it had club europe seating like US domestic first. The plane was probably old but the seat and service excellent

[SimonS1]

Not sure why I get the alarm really, at 26 it is hardly ancient and provided properly maintained should be perfectly fine.

In an ideal world the airline would operate all flights with its own equipment, but things happen and to cover peaks.

BA have a history of doing this – Titan, Air Belgium, Avion Express, Finnair, Jettime etc – and to my knowledge no passengers have been harmed….

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red_robbo

[Rferguson2]

I would go out of my way to choose an older aircraft lol but that is just my Avgeek sentiments.

Always enjoy a domestic flight in the US on a Delta or United 757 or 767 that is 30-odd years old! A brand new 737 or airbus pfftttt.

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red_robbo, sparkyflier

[cwoodward]

Titan are a British company I believe based at Stanstead.
Their A321 passenger fleet is much younger and one 4 yo with first class is leased to the British government. Fleet includes also- 4X A321 freighters.

They seemingly have A321s available but likely too costly for BA!

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christ

[AlanOrton1]

Age is a red herring – AA fly A319, A320 and 777 all at 25 years of age, as well as other US carriers RF2 flags above.

Given Titan only have a pax fleet of 7 and they operate flights for TUI, Jet2 and others, it may well be the case they don’t have airframes available.

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red_robbo, christ

[cwoodward]

‘Age is a red herring’ = NOT -the facts and information from the manufacturer say otherwise.

Dispute them if you must however an old aircraft is an old aircraft and eventually subject to catoptric failure unless the airframe is substantially replaced as happens with older military aircraft. It is seldom economic to do this on an old A321 unless it has led a sheltered life with a company capable of keeping it mechanically in tip top condition

Certainly an aircrafts safe life cycle varies depending on several factors, including the type of aircraft, the number of flight hours, and the maintenance history.

Airlines with substantial and advanced maintenance facilities such as Lufthansa and Cathay Pacific/Swire/Haeco are capable to substantially rebuild an aircraft and safely lengthen it life. However the old much used DAT aircraft that I mentioned has never benefited from such treatment has had a hard life and is by any reasonable reckoning very close to needing to be scrapped.

The point of my post was that I was disappointed that BA would offer such an old warn aircraft and that remains my point.

I had thought that my post would perhaps liven up the forum in a slow week and so it is however for the record at no time have I suggested that the aircraft is unsafe or in any way not (at this time) airworthy.

[AndrewinHK]

cwoodward i understand the points you are trying to make but what knowledge do you have of the maintenance record of the aircraft in question? Sichuan Airlines has had no major incidents in its history as an airline, neither has DAT, you seem to be inferring that as the aircraft has spent much of its life in China it has somehow had a hard life versus aircraft that are older and operating for European carriers. We have a post from someone who has traveled on said aircraft in the forum, and it seems no major issues. I would likely choose a BA-operated flight versus DAT, but I don’t agree with the line of somehow inferring BA is negligent or mismanaged due to it wet leasing a 26 year old 321, I do not see the evidence in this case for that claim to be made.

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scotscrew, red_robbo, christ, sparkyflier, AlanOrton1, DerekVH, ASK1945

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