[Anonymous]

[Swissdiver]

Not that I read the Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5161906/Mid-air-scare-as-both-pilots-fall-asleep-during-long-haul-flight.html, but this news was related in a Swiss newspaper.

Two pilots admitted they both were sleeping during a flight to the UK. It seems the CAA only revealed partial details. It was on a A330 (therefore not BA!) on August 13th. And pilots said it was due to too heavy Summer workload and lack of sleep. Worrying, isn’t it?

[GrahamSmith]

More here:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/over-half-of-uk-pilots-have-fallen-asleep-on-fl

[Swissdiver]

Thanks, Graham. So crossing “UK-operated Airbus passenger plane” with the reported fact it was a A330 leads us to Virgin, Thomas Cook or Monarch…

[HarryMonk]

According to the Daily Mail, it was a Virgin flight

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2434375/One-UK-airline-pilots-woken-cockpit-pilot-asleep.htm

Is the headline misleading? Were they asleep or not? The report to the CAA said “pilots asleep” yet The CAA say the pilots were not asleep, the pilots say they took alternate sleeps, so who filed the report to the CAA saying they were asleep? Perhaps this is all a bit Johnny Nash (There are more questions than answers)

Strange how yesterday, again according to the Daily Mail, Virgin declined to comment on such issues but seeing as there are only three UK A330 operators it did narrow things down a little as to who the airline was, especially as one of the other operators stated it was not themselves

[Eastbourneguy]

According to the Mail it was a VS flight, and the pilots claimed that on a 2 night stop the only had 5 hours rest….this begs the question why? the reason why they would have 2 nights would lead me to think it was over 10 hours flying time ….as under that they have 1 night ….

Unless they were enjoying themselves too much, then they should have had time to rest.

[BigDog.]

If Telegraph is correct and it’s a 325-seat UK-operated A330 it must be Thomas Cook Airlines since there are only 3 UK operators of the type: Virgin with 266 or 314 seats and Monarch with 374.

http://www.seatplans.com/airlines/Thomas-Cook-Airlines/seatplans/A330-200-20

[BA4ever]

Why don’t I believe that they weren’t asleep at the same time?

[BAorBUST01]

because bloodyawful4ever you fly the worlds chavtastict airline, no one in theyre right mind fly’s with Airways these days.

Vs all the way :), og and for the record pilots are allocated a slot to sleep anyway BA bigwigs included

[rferguson]

What I don’t understand about this incident is this:

How is it possible that both pilots could have only had five hours sleep in the previous two nights?

Minimum rest hours have to be strictly adhered to. At the VERY minimum the flight crew would have had to have had TEN hours rest in the hotel. This is the absolute minimum even after taking ‘discretion’ into consideration. The ten hours has to be IN the hotel – not between landing and takeoff.

The other major issue is this – any flight crew whom feel they are fatigued and potentially unable to carry out their duties has a legal obligation to not operate the flight and ‘go fatigued’. Now why the hell would the commander of an aircraft knowing that he AND his First Officer have only had five hours sleep in the previous two nights continue to operate a flight? It’s crazy! They both know they can’t have had adequate rest to perform the duties necessary of them – especially if something out of the ordinary requiring immediate alertness alertness had arisen. I just think it’s incredible and quite damning not just to the airlines but to the pilots concerned themselves.

Perhaps the devil is in the detail and there are some vitals missing from the report. But regardless of the reasons why, these two pilots should never have flown a plane full of passengers in the fatigued state they were in.

If anything HAD happened and this had come out in the wash, that probably would have been the end for the airline concerned.

[Swissdiver]

Agree, RF. In my view, there are only two possible reasons (based on what we currently know): either the pilots used their time off to do some tourism or go out (which basically would mean they will never fly a commercial aircraft again) or they were under huge pressure from their employer. In the latter case, it would be very serious and damaging for the airline’s reputation…

[rferguson]

I would say you have hit the nail on the head Swissdiver.

The reality is that it is quite difficult to ‘go fatigued’ in the UK. As a BA cabin crew found out a few years ago. In a nutshell a crew was due to operate a JFK-LHR overnight flight. They left the BA hotel in Manhattan during bad weather and headed out to JFK. Boarded the aircraft, boarded the passengers. Big snow storm. Waited waited waited. Four hours on the ground, did a meal service. Two hour later the airport was closed, flight cancelled as were many others. By this stage the crew had already been on duty for nine hours.

Of course accommodation was scarce due to the snow and cancelled flights and the only rooms that could be secured for the cabin crew were in a motel on Long Island which they described as ‘a place that rented rooms by the hour’. 12 hours after leaving the Manhattan hotel the crew arrive at the motel. The crew were given their ten hours minimum rest before their transport back to JFK to operate the cancelled flight from the day before. The crew claimed that they were unable to sleep most of the night. The motel was not fit for crew resting purposes, there were doors slamming all night, cars pulling up outside, arguments/parties/yelling could be heard. The next morning 14 or the 17 crew said they were going ‘fatigued’. They did not feel adequately rested and felt they were unfit to operate the flight. So the flight was again, cancelled. Tellingly, the only three crew that did NOT go fatigued was the two pilots and the CSD – perhaps they felt they were under more commercial pressure and would have more of a fall out once the flight got back to base if they too agreed they were ‘fatigued’. Once the flight eventually returned to the UK all 14 crew who went fatigued were suspended from duty. The reasoning being if the pilots and CSD felt they weren’t fatigued, how could anyone else?

So, on the one hand we are told by the CAA that we have a legal obligation to report fatigued if we feel unable to safely operate a flight. Yet on the other, you potentially suffer nasty consequences for doing so.

But I would think if you could back up your claim that you had only had five hours sleep in the previous two nights and this was in some way/shape/form down to situations outside your control you would absolutely be backed if you were to go fatigued.

[Swissdiver]

Interestingly had the crew decided not to go fatigued, the pilots might have been forced to… That said, in this example, while the hotel wasn’t fit, the 10 hours were there. Which doesn’t seem to be the case for the Virgin flight (if it is Virgin).

[rferguson]

But that’s the thing I don’t get Swiss. If the airline concerned is Virgin Atlantic – being that all their flying is longhaul – all their flights would be subject to the ten hour rest rule in the hotel. There is absolutely no way they could go below this. If they choose to both nap at the same time in the cockpit that’s just between the two pilots. But to reduce rest below the ten hours would require the co-operation (and the keeping quiet) of the entire cabin crew as well as the ground staff. And the Captain would risk losing his license for doing so.

There are obviously reasons for the two pilots only resting for five hours in the previous two nights – i’m just struggling to work out what those reasons are!

[Swissdiver]

There is something else: the enquiry. So something happened for the issue to be investigated.

[Author]

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