[hartleys11]

Has Air France upgraded all their B777s with the new business class seats now. I am looking to book CDG-DXB in May but don’t fancy the old style seats. Last I heard it was due to be rolled out completely by the end of 2023.

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Philippe

[w8ster]

Unfortunately no yet. I flew AF DXB – CDG – DXB in Dec and it was the 777-200 that appears very dated but did have 1-2-1 config which meant aisle access for all in Business. The same time in 2022 was the A330 which had 2-2-2 but somehow it felt newer and more comfortable.

I know sometimes they fly the A350 to Dubai but not sure when.. certainly not around Christmas time when I need them 🙂

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hartleys11

[Rferguson2]

There are a few of the dreaded 777-300’s with 2x3x2 seating. They are referred to as ‘NEV4’ configuration and are a three class with 42J/24W/315Y seats.

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hartleys11

[MarcusGB]

Air France, now a 5 Star Airline, have For long haul, completed the 773-ER’s.
Having travelled them for long haul routes to Singapore, and now BKK, the new cabins are superb.
SUrprising how completely full these new 2 cabins of 48 seat Cabins are travelling SE Asia, and the space taken appears with PE to be half of the whole Aircraft, to over the wing!
But they are Perfect in ambiance, comfort and privacy, some of the best seats in the sky for Business.
This makes an ordinary Economy seat quite well back in the Aircraft.
This is quite a Bold step to accommodate so many Premium Cabins. and Enhanced seating?!

Their A350’s that have also made a huge difference, matching these standards with a huge number yet to be delivered.

It is true that some KLM and AF services are being operated by older 772-ER’s, some of the KLM having been also converted.
But KLM’s slightly different Studio style seats, as on their Dreamliner fleet, are a far better quality than the previous 777 / Business 2-2-2 seating.
I think now most of us expect these 1-2-1 Business seats for all Airlines for long haul, as can be seen on most Airlines Worldwide.
This especially at the current all time high prices, which seems only to be increasing.

I Purposefully redirect for the A350’s, new cabin 773-ER’s, and KLM Dreamliners when compared with the 772 Aircraft on routes, such as KLM’x to BKK.
(It remains more reasonable in fares to start with KLM or AF ex Europe, than LHR at times, with the possibility of saving over £1,000).

Though flights toward S.East Asia, are booked and pretty full months ahead, as i found in my recent searches for booking!
Prices ranged from Euros 995 Out, buy varying to return from Euros 995 up to over Euros +3,500 back, ex Amsterdam for both Airlines.
Better to book early!
Every Business seat is full by the date of travel as you can see when boarding, but the “Bid for upgrades” are also a small factor for this also.

[cwoodward]

“Air France, now a 5 Star Airline” – is KLM also such ?

What please is the definition of a “5 star airline:” and is it in any way an official designation.

Your post prompted me to take a look at the KLM-AF and its fleet.

It is as you allude to indeed an elderly fleet with most of its 777-200s over 20 years and a good number over 25 y.o.
The 777-300s are a little younger with and average age of 16 years.Overall the 94 strong 777 fleet has an average age of about 17 years.
The 92 strong fleet of A330, A220.321 and 319s are not young ether averaging over 20 years old. Thats a lot of short hauls and personally I would be looking at younger alternatives.

This must be one of the oldest fleets of any major airline only saved from an average fleet age of well over 20 years by its 27 strong A350 fleet (with only 5 more on order).
What did surprise me rather was that these 5 aircraft are the only widebody aircraft the group has on order. (I would have expected to see some new 777s and more A350s -perhaps 1000s) plus just the 8 narrow body A321s.

If the airline is going to remain competitive very soon there is going to need to be a major aircraft reinvestment needed as there is a limit to how many times that it is economically viable to refit the passenger cabins on increasingly elderly aircraft. These older aircraft are uncompetitive costly to operate, polluting and increasingly costly to keep in the air.

Possibly this is one of the reasons why the groups share value has lost over 50% in the past couple of years.

The above seems to be rather a poor state of affairs for a major “5 star” airline I am wondering if I have missed seeing a large aircraft order being placed recently by the group.

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MarcusGB

[MarcusGB]

Thanks cwoodward.

Yes, Air France has been awarded as a 5 Star Airline for 2023/4 by Global APEX, passenger reviews, but remains 4 Star under Skytrax.

https://corporate.airfrance.com/en/news/air-france-awarded-five-stars-official-apex-2024-global-ranking-best-airlines

My reference to the “New Orders”, which i thought primarily for AF, may well be also switched over to KLM, that currently does not fly the A350 series. They seem to be being adopted to replace KLM’s 772/3 ER’s and A332/3’s.
KLM went with Boeing Dreamliner 789/10’s, of which they have 23, of roughly 5 yrs average age.
Perhaps not a surprise, that Airbus orders are benefiting European Economies, a huge Order from the group?!

The 50 + 40 (Optional) orders for the A350-900/1000, is a huge commitment, but will cut fuel use by 25%, and lower Carbon Emissions.
Add to this the Sustainable fuel requirements set by the EU, (I was charged Euro +30 within my ticketing for a Business B777 return to Singapore which is added into all our tickets now).
Plus I Opted to contribute Euro 101 towards the option of Sustainable fuel and Reforestation, but also gained 11XP’s Towards my Membership status for my trip.
.
https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/newsroom/air-france-klm-group-will-place-order-50-airbus-a350-family-aircraft-purchase-rights-40

Having flown both Airlines and all of the above new aircraft, they make a huge difference on board. Better ambiance, comfortable seating, more space, and a new cabin installation or Aircraft always is great to fly.
I really do look at the fare, and see which is the best Aircraft i can get for the best value, with new Business Cabins and suites on both KLM and Air France. We recall they are One KLM/AF group, but the two brands have always been kept operating separately.

The Carbon Emissions of the group, are set to be reduced by a target of 30% by 2030. as per the set Policy.
KLM’s small additions or refitting of the 737 7/8/9’s also makes quite a difference on board.

When flying from LCY their Embraer 190 fleet makes a far better and more efficient and pleasant trip, used for many UK regional airports, and within Europe.
These have been supplemented by the recent Embraer 192’s also, some of which run AMS-LHR.
The Air France A200-300’s are also a pleasant addition, again from LHR-CDG and at times CDG-LIS i have taken.

I simply do not book or choose flights on the older seating or cabins for Long Haul.

I hope this is informative, so they have made huge orders for new aircraft, whilst KLM have calmly added Embraers for Europe, and Dreamliners for long haul, for some years now.

Whilst being one of the largest European Airline Groups, I doubt as these orders have come through and being added too, they will be the oldest Airline fleet now, and certainly not in the future. It is almost a complete renewal of both Airline fleets!

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