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This topic contains 38 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  MarcusUK 27 May 2013
at 12:07

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  • BigDog.

    You have missed the point. Given BA long haul have deserted the regions, then it is disingenuous to criticise those who now choose another, more convenient, often higher quality direct carrier. Loyalty/allegiance works both ways.
    Likewise it wrong to carp about mid-east carriers themselves when they have filled a void vacated by BA.


    Actually no, BA have flights operating to many of the UK’s major airports including Manchester, Bradford, Aberdeen, Isle of Man, Belfast, Dublin, Glasgow, Edinburgh & Newcastle. Choosing a mid east carrier over BA does very little especially if your end destination is not in the UAE or neighboring state/country.

    If you are talking about long haul global connectivity, it works best at a major international hub. The other way it works is where the airport is served as a spoke from somebody else’s major international hub. That is what you are seeing with Dubai. However the important thing people are forgetting here is the environment because essentially people could be travelling further and their flights longer. BA started flying from Heathrow to Seoul in South Korea. If you look at the distance, which is the shortest route between two points, flying from Heathrow direct to Seoul is about 37% shorter than if you fly Heathrow-Dubai-Seoul. In fact the geographic location of Dubai does not really benefit anybody in terms of distance and environmental issues, travelling from the UK other than to places like India, because it is not well located geographically.

    What BA are seeing today is that people from Manchester are flying to Dubai to connect to India. They are flying significantly longer distances than if they were flying Manchester to Heathrow. If you are concerned with the environmental argument, frankly, we are actually pushing people into less environmentally sustainable-friendly ways of travelling because the government is forcing them to transfer over other hub airports outside the UK because of the lack of hub capacity in the UK.



    I will merely make the point one final time – if I wished to go to a non-hub US City, say Nashville, I could fly AA from Manchester to Chicago and connect or Delta to Atlanta and connect. If I wished to be loyal to BA I would need to add an extra leg in both directions. Likewise Australia – MAN-DXB-Australia – no need to go via LHR and BA.

    BA cannot make it work but others can and do run profitable services from regional airports. Those championing BA ad nauseam fail to appreciate it is often BA’s shortcomings at the root – no pun intended.
    BA have shown no loyalty to the regions, they cannot expect it returned. End.


    There needs to be sufficient and continuous demand for that to happen. It is stupid to have flights going to every place on the planet from all UK airports. That’s why BA has code share flights with other carriers such as AA.


    The low cost carriers seem to have generated continous demand for that to happen. They obviously don’t think its stupid to have flights going to every place on the planet from all UK airports.

    If you lived in Manchester and wanted to go to Paris you now have to fly via London with BA. If you live in Birmingham and want to go to Frantfurt you have to fly LH or a LCC because BA don’t fly their any more.

    Some people don’t look at fhe enviromental factor. They like the fact they can fly from Newcastle to Thailand via Dubai or Manchester to Hong Kong via Dubai.

    BA are very cyclical in being good then the best then the worst.. The fact that last year 10 million business travellers flew on something orange means that someone out there is filling a gap that BA have missed out on.

    I know for a fact now I’d rather be a shareholder of easyjet than IAG at this point in time.


    My longstanding shareholding in Easyjet is proving far more valuable that my holding in IAG, so that is good news.

    I am based in London, so BA’s concentration of international routes ex LHR & LGW is most convenient, and that is good news.

    I am still of the opinion that BA should have kept their LCC, GO & in conjunction with Deutsche BA & now IAG acquiring Vueling, IAG would have been in a far stronger position in terms of short haul European routes.

    It is sad to see the sniping arising from contributors whose allegiance to certain airlines is so overly strong & ultra sensitive to any form of comment.


    An interesting analysis on BA by CAPA today.
    “British Airways: the parental favourite gets new toys, but still has homework to do”.


    The comparison with its European rivals is illustrative. However, two of the most interesting points(lower down the article) are the tables showing the fleet plans for 2015 compared to 2012, while the other shows delivery timetables of the different new aircraft types e.g 3 new A380s in each year 2013, 2014 & 2015.

    This should answer some of the queries discussed on this forum.


    Thanks for posting this transtraxman.

    Interesting information wrt Short Haul/Mid-Haul

    …”BA’s decline on short/medium-haul routes was accompanied by the disposal or closure of a number of subsidiary companies in this segment, including Deutsche BA, BA Citi Express and BA Connect. BA also ceased franchise operations with franchisees BMED and GB Airways. It seemed that low-cost competition was persuading it to abandon all but hub feeder routes and a few niche point-to-point routes between key business destinations. Its own experiment with setting up an LCC, Go, ended in a management buy out and subsequent sale to easyJet (the latter also eventually bought BA franchisee GB Airways).”….

    …exiting a profitable (for those with good leadership) high growth market is an interesting strategy??

    Although IAG paid over the top for Vueling it is good to see Walsh has, all be it extremely late, eventually tuned into profitable short haul business. However given Walsh has been at the helm for 8 years now, yielding Easy, Ryan et al so many years head start, allowing them to become so well established, is reprehensible from a BA shareholder perspective.


    Seconded, Transtraxman. It is a very interesting article.

    However, it shows where BAs weaknesses are. When something like 9/11 happens, it leaves the airline with little areas to pick up the slack. I travel the Far East a lot, and everyone says the next expansion is China, Japan, and even the Sub-continent, India, is booming. When I travel to Singapore and Thailand, one sees double the Asian visitors to Europeans. (It does not help with a weak Euro and the economic climate in Europe.) I am surprised that IAG and BA are not trying to expand their market in those areas. Can someone please tell me where BAs pax come from on the American market? Are they Europeans/British, or Americans flying BA in preference to UNITED/AMERICAN/DELTA? if it is the latter, it says a lot for BAs service over their American counterparts, even though they are in the Alliance with American.
    Again, thanks for the thread.
    As I finish writing this thread, I hear on the news that a short-haul BA OSLO flt has had an emergency landing at LHR, closing the runway for a short time, and BA has cancelled all short hauls until 1600BST!


    Closing the runways lends the argument to having a third runway even just for emergencies.

    On the track of passengers to/from Asia, do not the entries into oneworld of Qatar, Sri Lankan and Malaysian provide the opportunities to supply the Indian, South East Asian, Australasian markets and others at no great effort?


    transtraxman – 24/05/2013 17:43 GMT

    For your information, an airport needs to provide fire cover for each runway, thus adding extra runways without extra fire services achieves nothing in this scenario, the airport will close.

    Under non emergency circumstances it is a different matter.


    If I say …..
    “Closing the runways lends the argument to having a third runway even just for emergencies,” including all the necessary services.
    Does that satisfy you “Guest_Poster”?


    You could even say “providing all necessary services to cover two runways may have reduced the delays significantly today.” I believe that may have been the case.

    Then again, how often would this scenario occur vs the cost? And would you really build a third runway and triplicate the services, purely for emergencies?

    It’s a little like the risk of snow, what is the tradeoff between cost of equipment/maintenance/staff training and closing the airport? This is a typical aleotary risk scenario, where the unpredictably of the event makes a probability based response inappropriate and the only realistic option is to add contingency to the operating budget. When the accountants have value engineered the scenarios, it is difficult to justify.

    I cannot be absolutely sure, but I would be very surprised if anyone would sign off a business case for such a contingency. By all means argue for a third runway for other reasons, though.


    What’s happening to BA. Well where to start? Late flights, filthy aircraft interior and exterior, too often good service is rare, average service at best. Late flights, lost bags. This I feel stems from poor management, lack of leadership and accountability. They pretend to listen but really do not have a clue. Other airlines such as AF/KLM actively track their loyal customers and automatically compensate with mileage when they drop the ball. BA offer nothing. When you write to them you get an off the shelf standard letter adapted to your complaint. Personally I think the only solution is to vote with your feet. Years back when a major US airline was facing the cliff edge due to poor service the new CEO came in and initiated one of the most renowned corporate turn arounds in the airline business. His opening mantra to his senior managers was ” How about this as an idea, we fly our passengers to where they want to go, when they want to go, on time and preferably with their bags!” The case study should be compulsory reading for all BA Managers! If they want to increase profitability then they should focus on getting the basics right.



    Heathrow have a third runway specifically for emergencies.

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