[IanFromHKG]

Leasing companies would be very much in the queue to arrest aircraft as part of the repossession process, as would secured lenders and others. That makes the arrested aircraft at least temporarily unavailable to anyone else. This means they can’t be operated (or leased out) by the Company, its management, its liquidator, other creditors or anyone else – which of course, is rather the point of the exercise.

Accordingly, although it may seem counter-intuitive, TC’s aircraft are precisely those which are most likely to be unavailable to fill the gap caused by their unavailability.

Far easier for a third party (such as HMG or the CAA (who run the ATOL scheme)) to get staff and crew elsewhere.

Incidentally, leased aircraft may still be the “property” of TC in a similar (but not identical) way to holders of leasehold property being “owners” of it during the term of the lease, but of course that will depend on the nature of the lease. Furthermore, engines and airframe may be owned separately and be subject to competing claims even though the arrest will apply to the whole “vessel” including the engine.

It’s all quite complicated and outside the scope of this forum, but alas what may seem like the obvious and common sense approach doesn’t always work legally in the event of competing claims for ownership, possession, collateral and other competing interests.

1 user thanked author for this post.

cwoodward

[capetonianm]

the repatriation exercise that is basically being undertaken by and paid for (at least initially) by British government agencies

Let’s be honest here : The taxpayer is funding this and I resent it.

2 users thanked author for this post.

GivingupBA, ImissConcorde

[transtraxman]

…………and on a brighter note
“Update: Condor & Thomas Cook Scandinavia To Continue Trading”, (Simple Flying 24-9-19)

Update: Condor & Thomas Cook Scandinavia To Continue Trading

………..this gives more details (and all for €380 million).
“Federal guarantee pledged for bridge loan to Condor, which continues operations”, (Aviation24.be 24-9-19)

Federal guarantee pledged for bridge loan to Condor, which continues operations

…………and since nobody mentions the Scandinavians´ fate
“Thomas Cook Scandinavia spun off, resumes flight ops”, (ch-aviation 24-9-19)

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/81882-thomas-cook-scandinavia-spun-off-resumes-flight-ops

Does that mean that Thomas Cook´s investment in those two companies is worth something?

[capetonianm]

I’ve just watched the news and am irritated by the complacent smug attitude of a man who, interviewed, stated that he is being repatriated for the second time by the government. Two years ago when Monarch went bust, and now with the TC collapse.

People have the right to enjoy holidays, but to me it’s wrong that they expect the government (=taxpayer) to pick up the tab for their repatriation. If they are improvident enough to travel without insurance, they act as their own insurer and should be made to pay accordingly and should be sent a bill for the cost of the repatriation flight.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Poshgirl58

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=966438]If they are improvident enough to travel without insurance,[/quote]

Are you sure the travel insurance would pick repatriation up…?

1 user thanked author for this post.

mkcol74

[capetonianm]

Most travel insurance covers airline/travel agent/touroperator insolvency, so I am sure they would. Mine shows the following :

This quotation meets the above needs by providing the following cover:
▪ Multi Trip Travel Insurance ▪ ……………
Financial Failure Cover: £3,000

Section 13
Holiday financial protection
You are covered up to the amount shown in the benefits schedule for;
a. irrecoverable sums paid in advance in the event of insolvency of an End Supplier associated with your trip prior to departure, or
b. in the event of insolvency of the End Supplier after departure;
i. additional pro rata costs incurred by you in replacing that part of the arrangements to a standard or class no better than that originally booked, or
ii. if curtailment of the trip is unavoidable – the cost of return transportation to your home country to a standard or class no better than that originally booked, provided that, where practicable, you shall have obtained our approval prior to incurring the relevant costs by contacting us as set out in the claims procedure.
c. any losses that are not directly associated with the incident that caused you to claim are limited to £/€1,500. For example, loss due to being unable to reach your pre-booked hotel, villa, car hire or cruise following the financial failure of an airline.
You are not covered for
a. any expense following your disinclination to travel or to continue with your trip or loss of enjoyment on your trip;
b. any expense arising from circumstances which could reasonably have been anticipated at the time you booked your trip;
c. any costs incurred by you which are recoverable or for which you receive or are expected to receive compensation;
d. any form of travel delay or other temporary disruption to your trip;
e. any loss sustained by you if the first threat of insolvency or financial failure (as defined herein) of the end supplier or other relevant company was announced before you purchased this insurance or booked the trip (whichever is the later).
f. any loss for which a third party is liable or which can be recovered by other legals means.
g. anything mentioned in the general exclusions unless specifically insured under this section.
Please also refer to the general exclusions

End Suppliers are defined as :
End Suppliers (related to section 13 only) means Scheduled Airlines, Rail Operators including Eurostar, Eurotunnel, Ferry and Cruise Operators, Coach Operators, Transfer Companies, Car Hire Companies, Hotels and Apartments, Villas abroad and cottages in the UK, Caravan sites, Campsites, Mobile Homes, Camper Van Rentals, Destination Management Companies, Safaris, Excursions, Theme Parks such as Disneyland Paris, Tour Operators, Travel and Booking Agents and Consolidators.

[MartynSinclair]

https://www.americanexpress.com/content/dam/amex/uk/pdf/insurance/platinum-insurance-documentation-april19.pdf

I am not sure Amex Plat card Insurance will cover. I did not feel it fair to clog up their already busy phone lines.

Am looking forward to see if BT will undertake an article on Travel Insurance…

[capetonianm]

I have just sent an email to my travel insurers about something else and have asked as a matter of interest if I had been on a Thomas Cook holiday when they collapsed, would my travel insurance have covered that eventuality?

As I normally make individual travel arrangements and use scheduled airlines that aren’t likely to collapse (famous last words .. Swissair ….!) and pay by Credit Card, it has never been something to which I’ve given much thought.

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=966447]it has never been something to which I’ve given much thought.[/quote]

……and I never gave much thought to an airline delaying my departure by 48 hours & not giving a sh*t 🙂

Simon Calder reported that most travel insurance is sold on cheap cost, not benefit.

[mkcol74]

Is SAF (Scheduled Air Failure) insurance a thing anymore? I remember adding it on when I worked in travel agencies, and so many times being questioned what the worth of that extra £1 was…

[SimonS1]

[postquote quote=966451][/postquote]

Isn’t it the case with most things in life that there is a range of cost options? Cars? Insurance? In fact I would say that airline tickets are also mostly bought on price.

The thing is surely that you can’t default to the cheapest option and then complain about the lack of benefits……a bit like you wouldn’t buy an economy ticket and then complain you don’t have a flat bed.

I renewed my travel insurance last month, as John Lewis have withdrawn from the market I had to look around. There were various priced options, and I took one that provided cover that meets the eventualities that I am realistically likely to encounter. It wasn’t the most expensive, and it wasn’t the cheapest either. Personally I wouldn’t rely on something provided with a credit card, it is likely to be put together on price and unlikely to be tailored to your needs.

Having seen your previous comments about your broker saying travel policies are effectively medical insurance policies (or words to that effect) I would respectfully suggest the issues does not lay with your insurer or underwriter…..

1 user thanked author for this post.

mkcol74

[MartynSinclair]

When you buy / research most insurance, you generally know what benefits are needed. Private medical insurance, if you live in London you look for the greater London hospitals cover, the level of consultant care and in / out patient cover. Making an amendment to a car insurance policy, the insurer has to go through reams of information/advice/restrictions.

Travel insurance remains in a league of its own. As far as I am aware, it is the only insurance involving medical/health benefits that requires no advice/recommendation or suitability. I do not know of one broker that offers advice (happily pay a fee) for a policy to be researched or compared. By your own admission you went to a retailer to buy a travel policy & I would very respectfully suggest a clothes shop branded travel policy is not a suitable place to buy a travel insurance policy for a sophisticated traveller.

I chose AMEX black, then plat card cover at the time, for one main reason – it was a travel insurance policy in my name, with full FOS referral rights. It offered me a degree of protection. Most (not all) credit card travel insurance policies are free benefits, not in the policy holders name, but in a group name, which provides very little protection.

I wonder what % of the unfortunate Thomas Cook travellers had any idea whether their travel insurance policy provided ANY protection. Clearly Thomas Cook aircrew’s did not cover them for the peril of their mode of transport failing due to liquidation of their employer. They too were left to beg other airlines for jump seats. i would have thought, these are the very perils travel policies are meant to cover.

So with my situation in HKG. I believed (wrongly) I had a very comprehensive travel insurance policy and yes I was gobsmacked when i was told my travel policy would not cover the peril (i.e. cover the costs) of a 48 hour delayed flight. Did I research a 48 hour ‘delayed flight’ before hand – off course not. Taking 100+ flights per year for the past 15 or so years, I have never been delayed by more than 6 hours.

I will repeat the challenge I made a couple of years ago. If anyone can refer me to a professional broker, who is willing to research advise and recommend a suitable travel insurance policy, that provides enhanced cover to what i currently have, i will gladly pay his professional fees.

Until then, i am reliant on BT on the editorial team to see if they are willing to write a detailed article on travel insurance AND perhaps, my general insurance broker is correct – travel insurance is merely for medical issues – but even then, benefits can be complex…

3 users thanked author for this post.

Jacob, Poshgirl58, transtraxman

[Poshgirl58]

Looking at the website of my usual insurer, Staysure (other companies are available) there’s a lengthy list of what is covered under the category of End Supplier Failure. This forms part of their Comprehensive policy, which of course costs more than their standard one. Interestingly, this statement was originally written on 2 August, then published on 23 September with info for TC customers.

On a recent programme about holidays from hell, a couple had a claim rejected because they used the insurance provided by their bank. It was only valid in Europe and they were in the Caribbean. They assumed it covered them for all travel.

Travellers fall into many categories, the obvious one being general ignorance. Some don’t understand what insurance means, so either don’t buy it or get the cheapest. Others will ensure they have the correct cover. Then there’s the ones who assume the cover from their bank is adequate without reading the paperwork. Unfortunately, there are members of my family who, despite having medical conditions, view travel insurance as a nuisance, only buying it a week before travel or not at all. Last year was the exception, when they went to Florida.

When booking business travel for my ex-employer, few colleagues asked about travel insurance, assuming they were covered for every eventuality. Specialist insurance was only mentioned for those travelling to hostile areas. I did ask to view the policy document once, but it never materialised.

[SimonS1]

To be honest Martin, I think you need to reflect a bit.

Firstly about 10% of John Lewis income comes from clothing/fashion. In any case it is a travel policy from Aegeas, JL just does the marketing through their financial services business. John Lewis Finance is a long established part of the group, so honestly I find that comment a bit silly.

Secondly your view may be that it isn’t suitable for a “sophisticated traveller”. Well I have claimed three times over the years and each time been paid out within a week. I wouldn’t have said cover for a 48 hour delay is a very “sophisticated” need, although I accept it is evidently more sophisticated than Amex can cater to.

Thirdly I did a reasonable degree of leg work myself. Including some research and reference to the likes of Which recommendations.

So my suggestion – don’t rely on a broker, take ownership of your own needs and do a bit of research yourself. The BIBA gives a checklist of things to cover in a travel policy. Which has online recommendations for different types of insurer. Pick 2 or 3, go online and have a look at the policy wording. It isn’t that hard. The BIBA will also connect you to specialist brokers if you give them a call.

I certainly wouldn’t rely on some generalist operator, with all due respect to such people I have yet to come across one with knowledge that goes much beyond insuring a Ford Fiesta or a 4 bedroom semi-detached in suburbia.

1 user thanked author for this post.

mkcol74

[cwoodward]

For many years our extended family who are inveterate travellers have used Travelex Travel Insurance.
They have proved to be very good and easy to deal with. Every claim has been paid promptly and without fuss.
Their flexible ‘build your own’ type cover has proved very useful.
I am not recommending them as such but for those looking for strong flexible and comprehensive cover they are perhaps worth a look.

[Author]

Posts